Slide Mounted Micro-Red Dots

[NeoWeird]

For your guys out there that use them, what do you think about slide mounted micro-red dots such as the Docter Optic, JP Point, Trijicon, etc? Could it serve a practical application in a home defense role?

I ask because I've been giving it a lot of thought and if someone were to break into my house while I was home, chances are I'd most likely be asleep. Mechanical movements and hand eye coordination will suffer from my sleepiness and aiming would further be hindered by the rush of adrenaline and inevitable panic. I figured a mounted optic, especially one that stays on constantly, could only aid in those types of scenarios and was curious why no one else seems to use one.

I don't know if what I am trying to portray makes sense, but it seems that they would fit a nice role in a home defensive handgun. Then again, I've never used one so I can't say what their drawbacks are.

Anyone care to enlighten me a bit on them with their personal experiences, reflections are using one, etc?

[apbrian112]

murphy's law may come into effect... ie. battery runs out, sight gets damaged from banging into a doorway, etc. etc. for HD purposes i'd rather have nite-sights and flashlight/laser combo (for combating the sleepiness and also for better target acquisition).

also, the red dots come with a cover which is one more thing you gotta do, and as we all know, in situations like you describe (home invasion, burglary, etc.) seconds count.

[Patriot]

My $0.02 (or less)

Anyone care to enlighten me a bit on them with their personal experiences, reflections are using one, etc?

Given the circumstances you describe, I think (in lieu of extensive comparison testing) that I would rather go with a laser/flashlight and/or night sights as a previous poster mentioned.

A CT -like laser seems the ticket for such a scenario (assuming the reflected light doesn't 'dazzle' excessively). I would think it would be the easiest to "acquire" (in the sense of getting feedback that your POA is on-target) under the circumstances.

[TonyM]

also, the red dots come with a cover which is one more thing you gotta do, and as we all know, in situations like you describe (home invasion, burglary, etc.) seconds count.

The cover on the Docter brand is optional. If you keep the gun in a completely dark container (safe, nightstand, etc) the optic turns off. With the smallest amount of ambient light (just tried it) like a window with blinds closed, the optic remains on.

NeoWeird:

I like the Docter Optics myself. If you want to lay out the cash, I think they are worth it. I have the 3.5 MOA dot on my Browning Buckmark, but would probably recommend the bigger dot like the 7.0. Sometimes the 3.5 is actually hard to find with the small window of the Docter, they are tiny.

[Matt P]

As with anything else, these micros take a little time to get used to. generally, the pistol is presented pretty far away from your face and eye. They are very fast to use, and the advantage is the one point of aiming. But, they do take time to use. I like the others would much rather spend the money on the laser/light combo. Projecting that laser down hallways and such, projects my intentions and what I have in my hands. I do this all without having to fire a shot, or yell out. The projection of force could very well be enough to not have you use any additional. This in my mind is the best way to go.
Additionally, the laser in low light, will spped up the process of you finding your sights, and the bad guys body.
Compliments on an exellent question.

[NeoWeird]

Ok, let me clear somethings up. Now this thing has eaten my post twice now so I am hoping it goes through because I am tired of retyping this thing and hoping I cover all the points I wanted to.

The gun that this is going to go on is my first handgun - a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911. It's my trusted companion and goes with me everywhere I plan on taking a gun. It's always had somethings that I wanted changed, but never got around to because it's my first and the fact that it never gave me problems in spite of anything (including no FTF or FTE in a couple thousand rounds).

That all changed last week.

One of my grip panels snapped in half and I had to crush two of the grip bushings to get them off (I had put purple loctite on them when I first got it because they would work loose). So I realized that if I was going to have to buy and replace parts I might as well fix the other problems as well. That only gave me an excuse to do a complete revamp of the gun.

I started with rebuilding the internals of the slide. A Stormlake bull barrel, EGW full length guide rod, Briley reverse plug, Wolff variable rate recoil spring, STI titanium firing pin with extra power spring, Ed Brown Hardcore extractor, and Chip McCormick slim checkered grips to round out the initial wave. The hope is to set aside a little money and have buy parts in waves - hopefully having a custom defensive pistol by the end of the year.

The light is already going into the package as are night sights. I am leaning towards the Insight Procyon and machining the slide to take some Novak low-pro carry night sights. The plan is to have a gun that I can use one handed in the dark and not having any problems. I've already taken into considertion of a mag well funnel, extended controls, etc. The optic was just an after thought that seems like a good idea.

If my measurements are right, I have about 1.75" between the rear sight and ejection port. The Trijicon red dot is 1.6" in length so it should be able to sit right between the two. If it is a good idea then I plan on trying to incorporate some sort of quick release lever to the sight base so that I can remove it if I need to; including if it breaks or the battery dies. Also, since it will be stored in a night stand drawer battery life should be great - around a year from what I read.

My main concer is that it seems like such a sound idea, yet no one seems to do it. I've realized recently that if I am going to rely on my firearms for defense then I need to use them, which might mean thinning out my collection (it's better to own one or two that I shoot regularaly than to own 30 I don't use - at least until the wife starts working). So I plan on shooting at the indoor range at least once a month, even if it's just two or three boxes; so getting used to the optic in low light shouldn't be a problem. I could always go read reviews about how people use them in IPSC until I'm blue in the face but that doesn't help with what I am trying to find out. I guess I wanted to hear from people who have used them and what they think about them for a defensice role.

Do you think you would forget about the sight all together and revert to a point-shoot technique under the low light and high stress of a violent break in making the optic just added bulk? Do you think it would be too much thought for those types of scenarios? Too much potential to not work properly? Those types of insights that are the meat and bones difference between 'at the range and under control' and 'at home fighting for dominance'.

Oh yeah, I plan on using the 7.5 or 8 MOA dot depending on which model I shoot for.

[railroader]

I use to have a doctor 7moa red dot on my cz75b. It was mounted with a doctor mount that fit the cz dove tail. Being that the slide wasn't cut for the doctor sight, it sat higher than the factory sights. When bringing the gun up to see the sight it felt kind of unnatural because I would be holding the gun slightly lower than normal. Sometimes I would have to search for the dot if I wasn't holding the gun just right especially weak handed. I got rid of the doctor and went with an adjustable rear and a fiber optic front which seems to work better for me.
Now a guy I know had a j point mounted low on a browning hipower it worked really well. You could actually see the front sight through the lens which made it point naturally. Mark

[Matt P]

The lack of responses should indicate that few have gotten behind them. I have, and find that yes, the dot is not always easy to find. Again, this is more due to my lack of use with them.
Its clear that they are the norm on Open guns. There is an advantage to them for thier fast sighting.
I know of only one guy, who had extensive IPSC comp. background. He had one on a Glock 17 long slide he used as a entry back up pistol to a rifle. The State allowed for his use of it.
Again, he was a Master level shooter, who could take full advantage of it.
Dont over think this thing.
I just dont see a huge benefit from such a sighting device for the use as you stated.
Spend the extra money on getting maybe an Airsoft gun and practicing at home with it. That benefit would far outweigh the benefits of a small reddot on a pistol.

All the above my opinion only. Matt

[hkfooey]

[rayra]

In your given scenario / stated cause, I wouldn't want to give up the advantage of moving in the dark in my own well-known house by putting a red beacon on top of my pistol.
If you are worried about an encoutner in the dark, get some tritium nightsights in the non-three-dot configurations that are available now.

/besides, I don't think your given premise of the superiority of the red dot over other sight types matters, given your premise of being sleepy / bleary-eyed.

[NeoWeird]

Good, these are more the types of response I wanted to hear. I can appreciate what you guys are trying to say. Although I must admit that I slightly disagree with some of your statements, as a collective I think I thoroughly respect your analysis. In as much as I like the idea of having an optic on and ready to roll, I think you guys are right in the generalization that it would just be too abnormal for use in a home defense scenario.

Thanks for the imput guys; saved me $400 and slide modifications. Who knows, maybe down the line I'll change my mind and I can do it then, but I think you guys are right.

Also, HKFooey, I've been told that too but no one has yet been able to show me any legitimate case or scenario where it was true. The closest thing was someone who had a LIGHT match trigger who admitted they didn't intentionally mean to pull the trigger, but in the panic they let off a round and hit the intruder. The DA went after them because it had now turned from a legitimate cause of self defense to a negligent discharge that resulted in great bodily harm to another person. If anything, it would seem in my eyes, that modifying a gun, especially adding optics or sights or modifiying trigger components to accurize the gun would only be measures to ensure that your shots are placed where they need to be and as such would be a safety measure and any lawyer worth their salt would easily be able to defend that, if not use it to your benifit.

ETA: I also think this 'gun store' myth has some origination in the fact that most police departments require a trigger above a certain weight, in some cases HEAVIER than factory because of accidental discharges when the officer is paniced. I've heard stories where accidental shootings by police were persued with civil suits. I am sure that has lead to the "anything less than factory and the DA will get you" myth that floats around.

[trinydex]

i have a question about what people think about using reflex sights on long guns. long guns point faster and have the benefit of possible consistency in cheekweld. you never have to turn on a reflex sight... the batteries last near forever... sure view window is not quite huge but once again... consistent cheekweld. reflex sights are light weight too, on a long gun with lights on it and etc etc can get heavy.