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  • gsparesa
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 918

    So where to aim?

    I was told by a couple of cop friends to aim center mass and double-tap to stop an assailant.


    After reading articles from Dr. Sydney Vail and Mr. Ronald Eyears (Firearms instructor), I will start changing my POA from center mass of the silhouette target and towards the hip pelvis area. That seems to be the ticket for me to practice.


    Dr Vail said, " Accurate hits in any reasonable caliber will "stop" a person if that person has experienced enough brain or spinal cord damage to interrupt regular neurologic impulses from reaching vital areas of the body or the person has hemorrhaged enough blood to lower his or her blood pressure where the brain no longer is able to function well."..." shot placement with any commercially available ammunition will offer you the best chance of maximizing your duty ammunition's stopping power."


    I was told that head shots were difficult to make while under duress. Other than a shot to the neck, getting penetration to the spinal cord seems to be a difficult objective to damage.


    Mr. Eyears article said, " So what does it take to shoot and stop an attacker? Fackler and other experts say it can only be accomplished two ways: destruction of a vital organ such as the heart or a vital body structure such as a hip joint."..." police shootings average about 2.8 rounds in 2.5 seconds, with all parties heard from."..." fat can protect organs and plug holes, preventing external bleeding and encouraging the attacker to ignore the wound."..." Nature has a reason for programming us to lose an arm and feel only a tingle or numbness."..." The civilian record stands at 33 rounds, and all of that trauma didn't cause instantaneous shutdown."..." the man had maintained aggression for perhaps 12 to 18 seconds after his heart had been pulverized."..." all defensive handgun choices are a trade-off between what you can control and what it takes to do the job."..." Many officers carry 9mm auto pistols. And this weapon does have its advantages. The size of the round means that your magazines can carry more "bumblebees," and the slight recoil of the "nine" makes it a good choice for accuracy, but it may not hit hard enough to do the job. A 9mm round barely reaches the energy of a hot 38 special."..." Whit Collins, the man who conceived the .40 S&W, warned that while it was designed to be a superior replacement for the 9mm, it would never equal, much less exceed, the .45 ACP."..." About six years ago, a leading gun magazine asked 10 nationally known shootists/gunsmiths to name their preferred defensive handgun cartridge. All 10 opted for the .45 ACP."


    I can do that and aim at the hip joint. When I was playing football my target was just slightly below the belt buckle to make tackles. If you place thrust your shoulder pad in that area when tackling it will cause the other player to reverse direction and fall backwards. I know, I did this many times.


    I am not changing my choice of caliber, which happens to be 45 ACP from a Glock 30SF. However, I'm placing my two targets on either side of the pelvis area at about belt level. If I miss slightly, I could still damage the groin.


    BTW these articles can be read at http://www.policemag.com
  • #2
  • #3
    sealocan
    Calguns Addict
    • Mar 2012
    • 9953

    I always aim for the baby toe..I figure I have 9 more rounds for the more vital areas and who wants to rush...
    how many more times in your life are you going to be in a shootout? (you know the kind that are going to be classified as a "good shoot"...not the other kind.)

    besides, have you ever banged your baby toe on a table leg ?

    oooh ...that hurts!

    ;-)

    Comment

    • #4
      himurax13
      Veteran Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 3895

      Originally posted by gsparesa
      After reading articles from Dr. Sydney Vail and Mr. Ronald Eyears (Firearms instructor), I will start changing my POA from center mass of the silhouette target and towards the hip pelvis area. That seems to be the ticket for me to practice.
      [/url]
      So what you are saying that your shots are going too high and you are compensating by aiming lower?

      You could solve the problem by either installing a Grip Force Adapter or learn how to point shoot the Glock properly.
      Originally posted by Bumslie
      HK - the best 600 dollar gun, 900 dollars can buy.
      Originally posted by Sleighter
      Getting legal advice from a gun salesman, is like getting medical advice from a janitor at a hospital. Both make about the same per hour and both prove that being around something all day doesn't make you an expert.

      Lifetime NRA member.

      Comment

      • #5
        elSquid
        In Memoriam
        • Aug 2007
        • 11844

        There have been some really good discussions at M4C about this subject:

        I am not a believer in the Mozambique or Stop Failure Drill of 2 shots to the chest then 1 shot to the head. I find the head to be an extremely problematic target. First of all the head itself is a difficult target to hit. It sits on top of the torso bouncing and weaving. It is definitely not a static/stationary target. I would say that the extremities such as the hand are the only parts of the body harder to hit. Early in my career I read Charles Remsberg’s. Street Survival. Evanston, IL: Ca...


        Specifically:

        I am not a believer in the Mozambique or Stop Failure Drill of 2 shots to the chest then 1 shot to the head. I find the head to be an extremely problematic target. First of all the head itself is a difficult target to hit. It sits on top of the torso bouncing and weaving. It is definitely not a static/stationary target. I would say that the extremities such as the hand are the only parts of the body harder to hit. Early in my career I read Charles Remsberg’s. Street Survival. Evanston, IL: Ca...


        As a musculoskeletal/non operative sports/interventional spine physician with an understanding of the anatomy in question let me offer some thoughts:

        Shooting "center mass" in the pelvis will likely result in missing the iliac arteries (responsible for the main pelvic arterial blood supply) altogether.

        You will likely perforate bowel and bladder only, and eventual peritoneal sepsis, while life threatening, doesn't qualify for rapid incapacitation. It would actually result in a relatively slow (and very painful) death.

        Shooting bullets in the pelvis will not likely incapacitate, as the bullets will just likely make holes in the ilium and sacrum; since the pelvis is a ring connected by the pubis symphysis in the front and the sacroiliac joints in the back you would have to fracture it in at least one place to cause any sort of instability, and since the bones in the pelvis are essentially large flat bones, bullets will likely simply make holes, not cause significant fractures, and therefore not cause any structural instability whatsoever.

        Hitting the spinal nerves in the sacral area will also not be enough for incapacitation since all of the nerves supplying the lower extremity muscles would have left the spine already at the junction between the L5 vertebra and the top end of the sacrum. Even if you did hit the L5 nerve and the first sacral spinal nerve on one side (impossible with only one bullet), the most you would do is to cause a partial inability to walk on one's heels and an inability to walk on one's toes, and weakness in knee flexion and hip extension and abduction that would certainly impair mobility but that wouldn't make an attacker drop (although this may cause them to loose their footing if they were maneuvering aggressively). But I think it is unlikely to even hit these nerves.


        MUCH more at that link!

        My understanding is that the "ideal" place to aim on the body is a triangle: the base goes from nipple to nipple, up to a point at the bottom of the neck.



        Of course, that is for a frontal shot. If your opponent is at a slight angle to you...

        -- Michael

        Comment

        • #6
          rm1911
          Veteran Member
          • Jan 2013
          • 4073

          Don't "aim". Point and shoot. Follow natural point of aim. Look directly at target bring gun into line of sight. Don't watch sights. Watch target. Gun will appear. It'll also help steady the trigger pull your moving through it.

          Try it sometime at steel. Remember you're not shooting bullseyes at 20yds. From 10-15 feet away just let your eyes focus and body naturally align. Do it without a gun a home. Just stand in front of something like a tv and without looking at your hands, always focused on tv, bring hands up and out from your waist. They'll pretty much cover what your looking at on the tv.

          Believe it or not the less you "aim" the better you'll hit. Once your eyes and hands become one you'll be amazed.
          NRA Life Member since 1990

          They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.

          Comment

          • #7
            Jimmybacon43
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2013
            • 2000

            Generally I think you should start at the lower most extremity and gradually work your way up to the head
            Originally posted by RookieShooter
            One of the theory is that the hormones they put in the milk. That is why there are more obesity and homosexual today then back in the 60's.

            Comment

            • #8
              mansysinatra
              Member
              • Nov 2014
              • 388

              Coat your bullets with salt

              Comment

              • #9
                maylebox
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2013
                • 1155

                My instructor has us practice center mass primarily but we also practice hip/pelvis and head shots. He said that a good pelvis shot is an excellent way to immobilize an attacker to stop the immediate threat.
                "Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here"

                Comment

                • #10
                  Old4eyes
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 1757

                  Salt bullets, nah. Now Silver Bullets, that's the ticket sonny!
                  Send Lawyers, Guns and Money - On second thought, hold the Lawyers.

                  Comment

                  • #11
                    scootle
                    CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                    CGN Contributor
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 2702

                    Originally posted by elSquid
                    My understanding is that the "ideal" place to aim on the body is a triangle: the base goes from nipple to nipple, up to a point at the bottom of the neck.

                    [...]

                    Of course, that is for a frontal shot. If your opponent is at a slight angle to you...

                    -- Michael
                    Yeah, that is, for the most part, what folks like the late Louis Awerbuck advocated... and your last bit about the "slight angle" is especially pertinent... very seldom will your target conveniently be full-frontal facing, which is something that Awerbuck stressed in all of his advanced classes, with canted/curved targets to hammer the point home.

                    My understanding is that most "failure to stop" doctrine works shots from CoM to head and/or pelvis, then back again until whatever is happening stops happening.
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                    • #12
                      himurax13
                      Veteran Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 3895

                      Originally posted by Old4eyes
                      Salt bullets, nah. Now Silver Bullets, that's the ticket sonny!
                      What happened to mercury filled hollowpoints with wax on top?
                      Originally posted by Bumslie
                      HK - the best 600 dollar gun, 900 dollars can buy.
                      Originally posted by Sleighter
                      Getting legal advice from a gun salesman, is like getting medical advice from a janitor at a hospital. Both make about the same per hour and both prove that being around something all day doesn't make you an expert.

                      Lifetime NRA member.

                      Comment

                      • #13
                        JTROKS
                        I need a LIFE!!
                        • Nov 2007
                        • 13093

                        If two to the center mass doesn't do it the third should be aimed at the head, Mozambique.
                        The wise man said just find your place
                        In the eye of the storm
                        Seek the roses along the way
                        Just beware of the thorns...
                        K. Meine

                        Comment

                        • #14
                          QuarterBoreGunner
                          Administrator
                          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 9389

                          My .02

                          Aim for the center of the largest piece of body you can see.
                          God help you if you ever get into a situation that you have to use lethal force to defend yourself or loved ones around you; your adrenaline will be pumping, you will tunnel in, you will experience tachypsychia, auditory exclusion, all the classic textbook symptoms of a life or death situation.

                          Controlled doubles or hammer doubles are fun and stuff, but no-one is going to be counting your shots, just keep shooting until the threat is stopped. One shot, two shots, five...all of the shots?.. keep shooting until they go down.

                          A good basic mantra that I try to refer to is:

                          Is he hit? (did you connect?)
                          Is he down? (has the bad guy collapsed?)
                          Is he out? (is he out of the fight? Unconscious?)
                          Does he have friends? (does he have *other* bad guys with him?)

                          Keep it simple.
                          Keep it basic.
                          /Chris

                          I have a perfect Burning Man attendance record: zero.

                          You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
                          Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
                          Like who?
                          Farmers.
                          Who else?
                          Farmers' mums.

                          Comment

                          • #15
                            phase1
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 1753

                            It's not rocket science...
                            Originally posted by Intimid8tor
                            I don't need one but I might need one.

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