Discrete Automatic -- A Handgun Design

[Apec]

Interesting. I would suggest losing some of the text on the slide and frame. The slide only needs the caliber/manufacturer name/model name. If you want to include a serial, I would move it to a more discreet location, rather than the middle of the slide. Manufacturing location would be more appropriate on the frame.

The safety warning on the frame probably isn't needed.

[ScottyXbones]

I LOVE the idea of an ambi slide release on the front strap. It's genius. If you could make it give some sort of tactile feedback, a click or something, when you're at slide lock, that would be a big advantage, especially in a competition gun.

Also, I really like magazine disconnects, they send empty mags flying when you hit the release. I wish CZ's had them.

I'd also like to see a little more of a beavertail to avoid slide bite. If you had the slide sit inside the frame, you might be able to get an even lower bore axis.

[Icypu]

It won't matter. The slide drops after you release and re-engage the grip safety. keeping it compressed does not drop the slide. Releasing it does not drop the slide. squeezing it from a released state drops the slide. So relax the grip and drop the mag or drop the mag and release the grip. It doesn't matter. It is when you squeeze the lever back again that the slide drops. It is perfectly natural and the fastest way to operate a slide release -- no need to use your thumb or rack the slide back. Insert, squeeze, slam you are ready to fire.

You relax the grip, you don't let go completely. You don't have to completely unfurl your fingers -- you just relax them enough to let the lever pop back out 8~10mm. Let me put it this way... have you ever held a pair of spring loaded thongs for BBQ or whatever? Closing your grip allows you to pick up that burger. Relaxing it doesn't actually drop the thongs does it? It just opens the thongs so you release the burger patty. The whole point about putting the lever in front instead of the rear is that it's operation is both natural and deliberate. You can draw and point the gun with or without applying about 6~8 pounds of pressure and 10mm of travel to that lever. You can relax your grip and still securely hold the gun and point it at the target. You cannot do that with a tang safety like a 1911 or an xD.

IMHO, the HK P7 has the most natural operating ergonomics and the front strap is clearly superior to a slide safety or a tang safety or a trigger safety. it is better than a slide safety because there is no way you can forget to disengage it -- the natural instinct is to tighten your grip, it is releasing it and safing the gun that is deliberate. It is better than a tang safety because you can deliberately relax your fingers and safe the gun while still securely holding it; you cannot deliberately move the web of your hand back. And, finally, because the gun's safeties are kept separate from the gun's trigger you do not need to encumber the trigger with a long 6~10mm pull like a Glock, xD, M&P or PPQ. The trigger can be as light and as short in pull as a custom 1911 without it being unsafe and without having any thumb safety to fool around with.

I think i get it now. I've only held a P7 in a gunstore so I never had a chance to figure out the operating controls.

How far did you get with this project?

[smittty]

I like it alot but I must be blunt...I wouldn't buy it if it has a warning on it.

[Justintoxicated]

Nice, make sure when you sell it, it is marked manufactured in CA not SC, but can only be sold in other states. Just because that would be a nice WTF.

[Jimmybacon43]

I can understand why this project didn't take off.

[tophatjones]

Well, that is not exactly true...

I'm a huge fan of the short recoil system, so you're preaching to the choir. My point is that every engineering choice has pros and cons; the drawbacks are not necessarily flaws, but compromises.

About the delayed blowback slide weights, you've got a point there. I'm not as familiar with delayed blowbacks as I am with the short recoil system. How much does a P7M10 slide weigh? How much does the slide in your design weigh? If slide mass is a concern, why not a hammer fired design? The added leverage of the hammer+mainspring would allow for an even lighter slide.

As far as heavy recoil springs go, I believe they are the least efficient method of managing slide velocity.

[dwightlooi]

I'm a huge fan of the short recoil system, so you're preaching to the choir. My point is that every engineering choice has pros and cons; the drawbacks are not necessarily flaws, but compromises.

About the delayed blowback slide weights, you've got a point there. I'm not as familiar with delayed blowbacks as I am with the short recoil system. How much does a P7M10 slide weigh? How much does the slide in your design weigh? If slide mass is a concern, why not a hammer fired design? The added leverage of the hammer+mainspring would allow for an even lighter slide.

As far as heavy recoil springs go, I believe they are the least efficient method of managing slide velocity.

I didn't actually put them on a scale. I don't own an .40 S&W M10; I have held both but I don't own the M10. It's about 170% the weight on the 9mm M8/M13 slide. But, here are photos of both... ALL that extra thickness on the slide is extra steel to weigh it down. It looks almost ridiculous and out of proportions.

[SoberClurichaun]

That thing is pretty dang cool

[96snake]

No, it draws from the best aspects of Helmut Weldle's HK P7. But it is fundamentally a completely different pistol in operating principle. The P7 is a gas delayed gun, this is a tilting barrel gun. The P7 is a squeeze cocking design, this is a single action only design with a front safety lever.

Ok so it's a P7 and you changed a few things

[The Last American Hero]

Nice work, but REALLY didn't like the whole HK P7 front strap thingy when I tried it, and that was before I really got into guns (but I was using various nail guns, drills, saws etc with triggers all day long).

This might sound dumb but in spite of what everyone was saying about ergos I was thinking "what if my fingers get confused" since it seemed like it had basically two triggers.

Doesn't surprise me no one ever made any more.

[Libtard]

Discrete Automatic -- A Handgun Design

Chamber indicator or not. Magazine Disconnect or not. You'll need a microstamping firing pin and chamber to make the list now. It is not a viable technology and there is no existing machinery to implement it. That is why there has been ZERO new handguns since they started enforcing microstamping.

I think it is likely that microstamping will eventually be repealed and if/when it is, there's a good likelihood that LCI and disconnect will remain required. I've seen some good implementations of LCI, like on an HK, and the mag disconnect feature can usually be disabled by the owner.

I'm not saying what I'm in favor of, only that's what I think the legal outcome will be. So it's not a bad idea for a manufacturer to design LCI and disconnect into handguns, even if consumers don't care.

[nitroxdiver]

This might sound dumb but in spite of what everyone was saying about ergos I was thinking "what if my fingers get confused" since it seemed like it had basically two triggers.

HK thought of that too. The P7 series will still fire if you were to pull the trigger first, then squeeze cock it second, however the squeeze cocking action is heavier doing it that way.



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[nitroxdiver]

I appreciate your cad skills. I think if you continue down the design path with this, you would find the locked breech tilt action design you are proposing for the pistol will result in a larger slide physically than depicted in the drawing.

As I'm sure you know, one of the P7's great attributes as a gas retarded blowback design is its minimal slide dimensions. Of course, it's Achilles heel as a range hose is also the gas retarded blowback design, but it wasn't built with that usage in mind.

The P7 isn't made anymore for one simple reason. It's not financially advantageous for HK to do so any longer. It is now a legacy piece, like the P9s.

Just my thoughts, and again, I'm envious of your abilities to do computer drawings such as this.


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[tophatjones]

I didn't actually put them on a scale. I don't own an .40 S&W M10; I have held both but I don't own the M10. It's about 170% the weight on the 9mm M8/M13 slide. But, here are photos of both... ALL that extra thickness on the slide is extra steel to weigh it down. It looks almost ridiculous and out of proportions.

Found some numbers online, but I'm not sure how accurate they are:
Slide Weights
G26 = 11.75 oz
G27 = 12 oz
P7m8 = 11 oz
P7m10 "12.64 oz heavier than 9mm slide" = 23.64 oz!

The G26 and P7m8 slides are relatively similar in weight, but the weight of the P7m10 slide is almost double the weight of the G27 slide.

Also found this, but I'm not sure how accurate it is either.

"The P7M10 slide was beefed up on insistence from German engineers who said that the 9mm slide would not hold up. A former HK USA engineer named Paul Carroll claimed that the smaller slide was quite sufficient. The Germans obviously won on the technical side, but Carroll seems to have won on the aesthetics side."

Based on the above info, I'm inferring that although the P7m10 did require an increase in slide weight compared to the P7m8, the German engineers added more weight than necessary.