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About P7 heat issue, following quote from HKPRO
Link: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...ml#post1251606
Why HK stopped making the P7 series
Link: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...ml#post1251606
Originally posted by gmthecoolguy
Found G3kurz's reply to the question...
Note to All:
The P7 was not designed as a submachine gun. It is a gun fighters tool. In the US the average gun fight is over in three seconds or less and less than 3-5 rounds are fired. The P7 designer designed the P7 from a clean sheet of paper to be fast and non-sequential to put into action and just as quick and easy to "safe" after firing. It's speed and accuracy are designed to give the user that ever important though maybe slight advantage in a gunfight that can make all the difference. Every feature of the P7 exists for one purpose - user survival in a gun fight - PERIOD. Those capabilities come from the low slide height and center of gravity. That comes from the use of a non-tilting fixed barrel and that comes as a result of the use of the unique gas cylinder and piston retardation (locking) system located under the barrel nearest your firing fingers. With that you will get heat in the steel frame from both the barrel and more so the gas system - it is unavoidable and no manner of heat shield is going to make a difference. The so called "heat shield" is actually a finger shield and does little to stop the progress of heat into the steel parts. BUT AGAIN it was not designed for multiple mags fast w/o getting hot. That was the LAST concern of the designer. The first concern was getting first rounds fastest on target.
In training with a P7 volumes of rounds does not make one a better shooter - the quality of the rounds fired does. To avoid excessive heat build up combine your live fire sessions with reload drills and stoppage clearing. Do two round double tap drills with a reload in between and drawing from your carrying device. Speep from holster to holes thru the target should be your goal - not how many rounds can you send somewhere down range.
If you must shoot 35-50 rounds in ___ seconds, get another pistol for that or invest in a SMG - you have the wrong gun for range play.
An option is using compressed air from an air tank or compressor inserted in the bore AND gas cylinder to more rapidly cool the frame. That is the method used by HK to cool all of their weapons during extended testing at the factory inside a cooling box. A very hot P7 having fired 200 rounds in < 3 minutes using gloves can be cooled to ambient in just a few minutes. During desert testing we simply cooled the weapons in a barrel of water with no ill effect but I would not suggest that with the P7 as the water combined with the blued finish will result in rust under the grips and in places you cannot easily access (under sights, around the gas cylinder and barrel). The wet rag approach could also cause rust and actually would inhibit air flow for cooling. Compressed air is best.
Purists who understand the design mentality behind the P7 do not see this as a disadvantage because they know the benefits of the P7 FAR outweigh any perceived disadvanatges.
G3Kurz
Note to All:
The P7 was not designed as a submachine gun. It is a gun fighters tool. In the US the average gun fight is over in three seconds or less and less than 3-5 rounds are fired. The P7 designer designed the P7 from a clean sheet of paper to be fast and non-sequential to put into action and just as quick and easy to "safe" after firing. It's speed and accuracy are designed to give the user that ever important though maybe slight advantage in a gunfight that can make all the difference. Every feature of the P7 exists for one purpose - user survival in a gun fight - PERIOD. Those capabilities come from the low slide height and center of gravity. That comes from the use of a non-tilting fixed barrel and that comes as a result of the use of the unique gas cylinder and piston retardation (locking) system located under the barrel nearest your firing fingers. With that you will get heat in the steel frame from both the barrel and more so the gas system - it is unavoidable and no manner of heat shield is going to make a difference. The so called "heat shield" is actually a finger shield and does little to stop the progress of heat into the steel parts. BUT AGAIN it was not designed for multiple mags fast w/o getting hot. That was the LAST concern of the designer. The first concern was getting first rounds fastest on target.
In training with a P7 volumes of rounds does not make one a better shooter - the quality of the rounds fired does. To avoid excessive heat build up combine your live fire sessions with reload drills and stoppage clearing. Do two round double tap drills with a reload in between and drawing from your carrying device. Speep from holster to holes thru the target should be your goal - not how many rounds can you send somewhere down range.
If you must shoot 35-50 rounds in ___ seconds, get another pistol for that or invest in a SMG - you have the wrong gun for range play.
An option is using compressed air from an air tank or compressor inserted in the bore AND gas cylinder to more rapidly cool the frame. That is the method used by HK to cool all of their weapons during extended testing at the factory inside a cooling box. A very hot P7 having fired 200 rounds in < 3 minutes using gloves can be cooled to ambient in just a few minutes. During desert testing we simply cooled the weapons in a barrel of water with no ill effect but I would not suggest that with the P7 as the water combined with the blued finish will result in rust under the grips and in places you cannot easily access (under sights, around the gas cylinder and barrel). The wet rag approach could also cause rust and actually would inhibit air flow for cooling. Compressed air is best.
Purists who understand the design mentality behind the P7 do not see this as a disadvantage because they know the benefits of the P7 FAR outweigh any perceived disadvanatges.
G3Kurz
Why HK stopped making the P7 series
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/187410-why-hk-stopped-making-p7-series-2.html#post1404268
this may have been covered, but all responses seem to be speculation. i have heard everything from cost to manufacture to NJSP issues. when i look at the retail cost of other HK pistols vs. the retail price of the P7M8 when it was discontinued i don't understand that reasoning. unless the...
As noted this has been covered on HKPro previously. The main reasons the P7 is no longer made include:
-Unorthodox design and operation - many folks especially in law enforcement do not like the design, especially the need for the squeeze cocker and the concept of stress-induced gripping of the strong hand during stress.
-Very expensive and time consuming to make (you have to see it to understand the many steps it takes to make just the frame)
-Because of its cost to make it is not competitive against the Wonder 9's of the 1980's or today. You can make an entire Glock 17 for the cost to make the slide of the P7.
-Retirement of the P7 techs at HK GmbH. As the older generation on the factory floor retired and the know how departed, the quality of the P7's suffered. Too hard to make them well every time.
-Marketing against the P7 was effective by the larger pistol makers. More AD's by far on average with Glocks but they cover it well. HK did not.
-No real successes in DoD-level tests (a la US XM9 test).
-The operating system is more sensitive to ammo variances than John Moses Browning's tilting barrel blowback operation. What other handgun needs a gas cylinder tool and brush?
To make one today would be very expensive. You can't get around all the machining required on the frame alone. Mold the frame? Possible but that does not get you around all the other impediments above and then you need to address heat build up inside the polymer frame.
We went down this road at HK in the early 2000's. I proposed an updated "Tactical Carry" version of the P7 with a lightweight alloy frame and other sensible changes. HK GmbH had no stomach for it. Unlikely they would today when one considers the clear fact that USP's, HK45's and P30's are far cheaper to make, are conventioanl in operation and as a result HK has fared far better in the market then with any pistol before the USP. Hell, HK sold more P2000's in just the DHS then what they made in total in P7's in many years.
The P7 is an outstanding gunfighters tool - second to none in many ways. I carry one daily and have for decades. But it has it's issues and is the wrong gun for many, like it or not.
G3Kurz
-Unorthodox design and operation - many folks especially in law enforcement do not like the design, especially the need for the squeeze cocker and the concept of stress-induced gripping of the strong hand during stress.
-Very expensive and time consuming to make (you have to see it to understand the many steps it takes to make just the frame)
-Because of its cost to make it is not competitive against the Wonder 9's of the 1980's or today. You can make an entire Glock 17 for the cost to make the slide of the P7.
-Retirement of the P7 techs at HK GmbH. As the older generation on the factory floor retired and the know how departed, the quality of the P7's suffered. Too hard to make them well every time.
-Marketing against the P7 was effective by the larger pistol makers. More AD's by far on average with Glocks but they cover it well. HK did not.
-No real successes in DoD-level tests (a la US XM9 test).
-The operating system is more sensitive to ammo variances than John Moses Browning's tilting barrel blowback operation. What other handgun needs a gas cylinder tool and brush?
To make one today would be very expensive. You can't get around all the machining required on the frame alone. Mold the frame? Possible but that does not get you around all the other impediments above and then you need to address heat build up inside the polymer frame.
We went down this road at HK in the early 2000's. I proposed an updated "Tactical Carry" version of the P7 with a lightweight alloy frame and other sensible changes. HK GmbH had no stomach for it. Unlikely they would today when one considers the clear fact that USP's, HK45's and P30's are far cheaper to make, are conventioanl in operation and as a result HK has fared far better in the market then with any pistol before the USP. Hell, HK sold more P2000's in just the DHS then what they made in total in P7's in many years.
The P7 is an outstanding gunfighters tool - second to none in many ways. I carry one daily and have for decades. But it has it's issues and is the wrong gun for many, like it or not.
G3Kurz
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