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Disabling Built-in Internal Lock Invites Trouble.

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  • Tarn_Helm
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2007
    • 2126

    Disabling Built-in Internal Lock Invites Trouble.

    If anyone advises you to feel free to disable an ILS, take that advice with a grain of salt.

    But do feel free to buy a gun with a built-in "safety feature" and then disable that "safety feature" and use the gun in a self-defense shooting . . . and then feel free to get sued on some stupid technicality which we will all read about in the newspaper . . . as we follow your sad story all the way to the big house, where you won't feel so free, no matter what advice anyone types on a handgun forum or blog.

    Perhaps an individual who advises you to disable your handgun's built-in Internal Lock System will write letters of condolence to you when you are in prison . . . oh, I forgot, s/he's not offering you legal advice--just advice that might very well get you in very deep legal trouble . . . at which point you won't have the option to "feel free," as s/he has encouraged you to do.

    I do not buy handguns with built-in Internal Lock Systems because I am simply being cautious and not altering a feature that has been built into a gun by the manufacturer.

    Comments that advocate that you disable a built-in Internal Lock System are ill-advised and irresponsible.

    It is akin to advising someone to disable the seatbelt mechanism in his car, although at least seatbelts have some utility, unlike S&W's ILS.

    Telling someone to disable the ILS is the kind of advice I wish only my worst enemies would follow--not the kind of advice I would dole out to uninformed people who are new to the much-debated issue of the Internal Locking System being installed by the "Smith & Wesson Holding Corp." after the real "Smith & Wesson" was bought and renamed by a company called "Saf-T-Hammer" in order to avoid being completely destroyed by a lawsuit orchestrated by the Clinton administration through a sort of legal blackmail.

    See part of the story here:

    Spec an AR-15 from lower to optic. Real-time compatibility checks, live retailer pricing, save-and-share builds. Free tools, honest tier rankings, 50-state legal data.




    (If anyone can provide more accurate information and links to correct any errors I might be inadvertently spreading, please do so. I try to become correctly informed. If you show me I'm wrong, I'll change the inaccurate features in this post.)

    The fact that the gun had been altered to remove or defeat a "safety feature" could be used as alleged "evidence" against me for an anti-gun prosecution in the event that I should ever happen to use that altered gun in a self-defense shooting.

    The prosecutor could seize on the fact that I had deliberately done something that had made the gun "unsafe," which could in turn be used to argue that that shows my reckless disregard for human life and perhaps even unjustified intent to cause harm ("malice aforethought").

    Maybe I'm wrong.

    But I will face none of those problems if I only buy and use S&Ws that were made before the ILS was put into them.

    A more crucial life-and-death issue, however, might be that the ILS can spontaneously engage when you do not want or expect it to do so.

    Feel free to click the underlined link for information on this issue before you buy a Smith & Wesson which has been encumbered with this ridiculous "safety feature."

    Numerous Smith & Wesson addicts (among which I count myself as one) have apparently experienced unintended "Internal-Lock-Induced-Failure"--apparently caused by the lock, which locks the gun--while you're trying to shoot it--contrary to your wishes. Did I mention that the lock could apparently lock the gun, when you do not want it to, while you are shooting the gun?

    Sorry, I just cannot imagine buying a car, for example, that I KNOW could undergo a sudden, spontaneous four-wheel LOCKUP, due to a manufacturer-installed feature, while I'm driving it in a situation on which my life depends.

    Stupid person that I am--I would instead buy the older model that does not have that potential, unintended four-wheel LOCKUP feature built in to it.

    Hey, I don't know it all, as some folks do.

    But wouldn't that be a drag to find yourself in a situation of the gravest extreme with a gun that "safely" locks itself up while you're trying to shoot some thug who appears to want to inflict death or great bodily harm on you?

    But then again, maybe not--I don't know it all, as some folks do.

    Happy shooting to all you lock lovers (if the lock does not engage spontaneously).

    P.S.: Be careful about taking advice from anyone who might own stock in the new "Smith & Wesson Holding Corp."

    "Feel free" to take that advice with a grain of salt.

    (Feel free to accept my apology if the previous version of this post offended you.)
    "The Religion of Peace": Islam: What the West Needs to Know.

    America is Not a Democracy

    ". . . all [historical] experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms
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    NRA Benefactor/Life Member; Lifer: CRPA, GOA, SAF & JPFO

  • #2
    Lounge Machine
    Banned
    • Feb 2008
    • 330

    I think this is reaching... but that's just speculation. I don't think it would make you any worse off in a defensive shooting.

    Comment

    • #3
      Kruzr
      In Memoriam
      • Oct 2005
      • 1751

      Saf-T (who invented and patented the internal lock that S&W uses) bought Smith & Wesson from the British company that owned them in 2001. At the time, their liabilities weren't driving them to bankruptcy, their quality was. Saf-T created Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. in 2002.

      What has this got to do with disabling a mechanism on one's gun? An issue like that could come up in a civil suit but an intentional shooting will be legally judged on the circumstances.

      Comment

      • #4
        krim
        Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 305

        you should probably take the time to fix your links if you want anyone to read this.
        daisy sling shot, 8" plastic straw

        Comment

        • #5
          leelaw
          Junior Member
          CGN Contributor - Lifetime
          • Oct 2005
          • 10445

          Glad to see that this second version you've posted doesn't include the personal attacks you put in the first version.

          One thing I've love to know, is do you have any precedent, proof, or anything other than conjecture to back up your position?

          Comment

          • #6
            M. Sage
            Moderator Emeritus
            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
            • Jul 2006
            • 19759

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            The fact that the gun had been altered to remove or defeat a "safety feature" could be used as alleged "evidence" against me for an anti-gun prosecution in the event that I should ever happen to use that altered gun in a self-defense shooting.
            I agree with using caution when you modify a handgun that might be used in a defensive shooting, but for the most part, my worries wouldn't go much past lighter triggers...

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            The prosecutor could seize on the fact that I had deliberately done something that had made the gun "unsafe," which could in turn be used to argue that that shows my reckless disregard for human life and perhaps even unjustified intent to cause harm ("malice aforethought").

            Maybe I'm wrong.
            As far as I know, as long as the circumstances add up to show that your life was in danger, the case should be easily tossed out of court. In all reality, it's likely to be the civil suit after the shooting that will be the biggest threat. AFAIK, mostly from info from people who've been in defensive shootings in this state, you'll be sued for "negligently" putting holes in the BG. Your best defense is apparently to say "no, it wasn't an accident. I shot the SOB on purpose to save my life."

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            But I will face none of those problems if I only buy and use S&Ws that were made before the ILS was put into them.
            Should be simple for a lawyer with more than two brain cells to get an expert, any expert, on the stand to testify that an ILS is not a safety feature to prevent accidents by authorized users of that arm, but to prevent unauthorized uses of that arm. Since the user was an authorized user, the so-called "safety feature" would have absolutely no bearing on the case whatsoever.

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            A more crucial life-and-death issue, however, might be that the ILS can spontaneously engage when you do not want or expect it to do so.
            And then you make the best argument possible for disabling an integrated lock.

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            Feel free to click the underlined link for information on this issue before you buy a Smith & Wesson which has been encumbered with this ridiculous "safety feature."
            Only one link works...

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            Numerous Smith & Wesson addicts (among which I count myself as one) have apparently experienced unintended "Internal-Lock-Induced-Failure"--apparently caused by the lock, which locks the gun--while you're trying to shoot it--contrary to your wishes. Did I mention that the lock could apparently lock the gun, when you do not want it to, while you are shooting the gun?

            Sorry, I just cannot imagine buying a car, for example, that I KNOW could undergo a sudden, spontaneous four-wheel LOCKUP, due to a manufacturer-installed feature, while I'm driving it in a situation on which my life depends.
            I can't imagine the manufacturer of said auto not being held responsible and not being forced to initiate a recall to fix all of those autos by the NHTSA.

            Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
            Stupid person that I am--I would instead buy the older model that does not have that potential, unintended four-wheel LOCKUP feature built in to it.
            I'm a mechanic, so I'd gladly be buying a car like that (probably at a steeply-discounted price - who'd want one!?) and disabling the idiotic feature.

            In all seriousness, I can only see a problem with a lightened trigger like some competition guns use, since it would be pretty easy to argue that you accidentally touched the 2 lb trigger and didn't really mean to fire when you did.
            Originally posted by Deadbolt
            "We're here to take your land for your safety"

            "My Safety?" *click* "There, that was my safety"
            sigpicNRA Member

            Comment

            • #7
              tziggs
              Member
              • Feb 2008
              • 301

              Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
              Numerous Smith & Wesson addicts (among which I count myself as one) have apparently experienced unintended "Internal-Lock-Induced-Failure"--apparently caused by the lock, which locks the gun--while you're trying to shoot it--contrary to your wishes. Did I mention that the lock could apparently lock the gun, when you do not want it to, while you are shooting the gun?

              Sorry, I just cannot imagine buying a car, for example, that I KNOW could undergo a sudden, spontaneous four-wheel LOCKUP, due to a manufacturer-installed feature, while I'm driving it in a situation on which my life depends.
              Man, it seems like someone has a major ax to grind with S&W.

              While I'm not defending S&W's use of the lock, I'm not sure of your generalized statement that YOU KNOW these guns WILL lockup at unintended moments....especially when you used words like "could" and "apparently" to describe the situation. Those words don't reinforce strong statements.

              Legal ramifications are certainly debatable, so I wouldn't make my decision on that alone. I, however, agree that it is smarter to purchase a non-lock gun if the lock is an issue for you...just fewer things to go wrong in the dis/re-assembly process.

              BTW I have a 686 with the lock, have fired MANY rounds with no issues. I am confident with the firearm in any self defense situation. Any mechanical device...even non-lock models...could malfunction. Thats why I have the .45 ready also

              Comment

              • #8
                Californio
                CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
                CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                • Dec 2006
                • 4169

                Lets see the manufacture makes Model X with a Y trigger pull, consumer sends Model X to the custom shop for a full trigger job and de-honing. Model X has been modified, parts de-burred, made smoother, and trigger pull made crisp. Custom Shop also modifies the sight system to make it better.

                Is this ill-advised and irresponsible also, on a CCW piece?

                Any Smith work on and any piece used in the "Gravest Extreme" could be considered grounds for a legal attack not just ILS devices that are removed.
                "The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

                Comment

                • #9
                  Timberland
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 908

                  Stop trying to scare people. Look built in locks are a death trap, (Just think if somone else locked ur gun without you knowing). Now they are not Ca approved locking devices, so youll get no trubble there. Calm down, I wont but anything with an ILS, but if i do its getting disabbled, because its dangerous.
                  FOR SALE: XD45, 24/47 Yugo Mauser, AK RPD AES-10b

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    461
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2003
                    • 619

                    Is there a reason you have to be so "in your face" with this stuff? Calm rational discussion seems to work a whole lot better around here.

                    My thoughts- No I don't like the locks on S&W revolvers and I find them to compromise the reliability of the firearms, especially ones with heavy recoiling rounds. Will I buy one? Sure, why not? I have plenty of guns to use for protection with proven reliability and no locks, the rest are just range toys.

                    Will internet forum pressure make S&W give up the locks- not a chance in hell. Now that they've waded in they can't go back or they'd have liability on two fronts, those that have the lock guns and claim them as unreliable and for the future guns that "have no safety".

                    Shoot what you like and let others shoot what they like, why the stress?
                    -Tim-

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Mr. Meeseeks
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 2951

                      +1 for what 461 said.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        -hanko
                        CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                        CGN Contributor
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 14174

                        Originally posted by Tarn_Helm
                        (If anyone can provide more accurate information and links to correct any errors I might be inadvertently spreading, please do so. I try to become correctly informed. If you show me I'm wrong, I'll change the inaccurate features in this post.)
                        Brevity

                        Please provide a court case where modification of an oem safety feature cost the shooter a guilty verdict.

                        -hanko
                        True wealth is time. Time to enjoy life.

                        Life's journey is not to arrive safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy schit...what a ride"!!

                        Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. Mark Twain

                        A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog. Charles Doran

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          rue
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 1355

                          I never had a problem with my internal lock S&W. I'm not scared of it locking on me.
                          Originally posted by halifax
                          How about the next time a kid gets suspended/expelled for simply drawing a picture of a gun. I see a federal civil rights lawsuit against the school district for violation of 1st & 2nd amendments.


                          Originally posted by CA357
                          I am getting old and my bull***** tolerance is rapidly diminishing.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            hawk1
                            In Memoriam
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 7555

                            You know, by the same token, if you use your factory made Kimber Ultra CDP in a self defense situation that has not been molested at all a lawyer might sue you as well. He can claim you purchased this "killing" machine with the intent to do harm to some undeserving and upstanding citizen of the community. Throw in those "cop killer" hollow point bullets you are using too.

                            What I'm getting at is a lawyer will throw everything out there in the hopes to help his client. Defeating your handguns features may or may not make a difference.
                            sigpicNRA LIFE MEMBER

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              M. Sage
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                              • Jul 2006
                              • 19759

                              Originally posted by Timberland
                              Stop trying to scare people. Look built in locks are a death trap, (Just think if somone else locked ur gun without you knowing). Now they are not Ca approved locking devices, so youll get no trubble there. Calm down, I wont but anything with an ILS, but if i do its getting disabbled, because its dangerous.
                              You can destroy/discard/disable CA locking devices. They're only required to take delivery. Not to own the gun. I've only got two of the locks that were CA-required sitting around out of the five guns I've bought that had them.

                              Those "Project Childsafe" locks make fun reactive targets.
                              Originally posted by Deadbolt
                              "We're here to take your land for your safety"

                              "My Safety?" *click* "There, that was my safety"
                              sigpicNRA Member

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