Have the mighty fallen?

[H K corporate assassin]

These days we hear about QC issues and MIM parts and the collapse of reputations of many gun companies and in fact today's younger people think it's normal to send a pistol back for repairs for things that never should have broken in the first place. I grew up in a time when this wasn't normal and sending in a broken gun was largely unheard of, (except perhaps maybe Colt).
Smith and Wesson, Sig Sauer, Walther, Kimber, Ruger, Beretta and others have had a large increase in repair orders in the last decade. These are iconic manufacturers. Is it just the times we are living in, where only the bottom line matters and nobody really cares about the products they make anymore?

[67goat]

I don't believe it is anything like that at all.

First off, there is no hard data, just anecdotal stories. No manufacturer has ever released accurate data on failure rates.

Second, scale is a huge factor. When you make 100 times the amount of product, you will make 100 times more mistakes (even if you rate of mistakes is the same).

Third, changing production methods will always have an initial period of issues have to be worked out. While the design of guns themselves haven't changed much, the manufacturing processes change much more frequently than they have in the past. Unfortunately, the experimental period always involves the consumer. It's true of all products (not just guns) and of all times. At the turn of the 20th century manufacturing processes did not change as frequently, so there were fewer of these periods but they still happened. A current example is MIM. MIM of a decade ago is not the same as MIM today.

Fourth, communication is radically different today than even a decade ago (and certainly before that). You are much more likely to hear about complaints because of things like this forum. Same is true of crime, for example. People feel crime is at an all time high today, when the reality is crime rates are pretty low and have been dropping long term for decades. But we see it in the media more and more so people think that actually reflects rates (which it doesn't).

Fifth, the face of the average gun owner is changing. In the 70s, 50% of households had a gun (many of whom put them in a drawer and fired them once or twice, if at all). Today the number of guns are up, but the percentage of households is now around 33% or less. More and more, gun owners are people that go hunting or to the range. Basically, modern gun owners are more likely to use their guns, and therefore are more likely to discover issues with their guns.

[DBADRAT]

^^+1

[MrElectric03]

I agree with 67goat. I think it's largely due to the fact that there is such a high demand for guns and more are being produced than before.

[SilverTauron]

No.

It's the nature of human beings to complain loudly and praise quietly.

As if that's not bad enough ,there's a perception bias also.Scientific studies prove that people will bad mouth lower priced products ,and yet excuse higher priced products with the same problems.A stovepiping $2000 1911 will be excused as being "broken in",while a stovepiping $550 Glock is a defective piece of crap which should never have left the factory.

[trigger945]

67goat, you make a solid rebuttal. Just very solid imo. Good job!

[ShooterStymie]

No, I attribute it to three things.

1. Communications are are way different than they were 20 (or more) years ago. 20 years ago if a whole bunch of people complained about something like a make or model of a gun, the only way anyone would have heard about it is if some news agency picked up on it. Today, anyone can go to facebook, twitter, a message board, and share. Just because you hear more about something doesn't mean it's actually happening more.

2. Because of varying laws around the various parts of the country (and the world), gun manufacturer's are being forced add stuff to their guns and make design decisions that don't necessarily enhance performance. How much engineering effort does a manufacturer put into something like a loaded chamber indicator or magazine disconnect? Those things don't make a gun work better.

3. People like 'H K corporate assassin' can log in a spread rumors and fear monger day and night; but just because one moron spends all his time posting dozens or hundreds of messages spreading rumors doesn't mean those rumors reflect any great (or lesser for that matter) reality.

[negolien]

The amount of firearms being sold has skyrocketed. That makes it more likely you will see issues.

[k1dude]

I'll add to 67goat's post. Not only are there constantly changing manufacturing methods that need to be ironed out compared to before, but there are also many times more models with new models coming out constantly. Much more so than in the past. A manufacturers lineup may have been 10 models 50 years ago. Now it's not unusual to have 100 different models with multiple variants of each. Computer aided design and manufacturing has allowed niche specialization of product and a much faster life cycle. The speed from concept to market has also increased dramatically.

Constantly changing manufacturing process and constantly changing product lines create changeovers that can hit rough patches. So problems are inevitable. Actually if you think about it, it's shocking there are as few problems as there are. Compare guns to computer software and hardware and the gun industry looks pretty solid.

[Some Velvet-Fisted Brute]

I think it's a sign of the times in another way, too. People don't know how to fix things anymore. Even things as simple as a car's oil change is generally farmed out. The knowledge and tools to perform even simple smithing tasks are generally uncommon. The understanding and skills to troubleshoot a function problem are just not there in most cases where in the middle of the past century, most home's garages could accommodate many repair tasks, and most men (whether proficient or not) took as a matter of pride to do it themselves.

oh, and

[k1dude]

I think it's a sign of the times in another way, too. People don't know how to fix things anymore. Even things as simple as a car's oil change is generally farmed out. The knowledge and tools to perform even simple smithing tasks are generally uncommon. The understanding and skills to troubleshoot a function problem are just not there in most cases where in the middle of the past century, most home's garages could accommodate many repair tasks, and most men (whether proficient or not) took as a matter of pride to do it themselves.

oh, and

This is one of my big pet peeve's. Not to sound like an anachronism, but women no longer know how to sew, cook, and clean, and men don't know how to fix anything. I'm not a sexist either. I wouldn't mind if the men knew how to sew, cook, and clean and the women knew how to fix things. But neither sex seems to know how to do squat anymore.

[mlevans66]

I think it's a sign of the times in another way, too. People don't know how to fix things anymore. Even things as simple as a car's oil change is generally farmed out. The knowledge and tools to perform even simple smithing tasks are generally uncommon. The understanding and skills to troubleshoot a function problem are just not there in most cases where in the middle of the past century, most home's garages could accommodate many repair tasks, and most men (whether proficient or not) took as a matter of pride to do it themselves.

oh, and

Yeah this is true. When I go to a guys house and there ain't a hammer, duct tape and a screw driver within reach I tend to question his manhood. I know computer peeps that can at least hammer a nail but now it's getting bad! As for what OP was referring to I have not sent any guns back since I've been shooting. QA has dropped for some companies sure but not like he is referring.

[saber]

I'd argue things have actually gotten better. I started shooting and collecting guns in the 80's. There were lots of guys who bought 1911 and the expectation was that it had to be shipped off to work right.

[osxgp]

No.

It's the nature of human beings to complain loudly and praise quietly.

As if that's not bad enough ,there's a perception bias also.Scientific studies prove that people will bad mouth lower priced products ,and yet excuse higher priced products with the same problems.A stovepiping $2000 1911 will be excused as being "broken in",while a stovepiping $550 Glock is a defective piece of crap which should never have left the factory.

So true

[osxgp]

I think that the biggest problem is that a lot of companies are making shortcuts on manufacturing by switching to MIM parts but still charging the same price as machined parts.