need help diagnosing - kimber shooting low

[numbskull]

Hi All -- Would like your input/help diagnosing this problem:

== the problem ==
(new to me) kimber eclipse pro II (4" 1911) is shooting 6-12" low @15yards.

== details ==
** using the same ammo in my Sig 1911 I'm relatively accurate at that range; that's why I suspect the gun, and not the shooter
- ammo: 230gr fmj reloads, 230gr speer gold dot jhp?, and some other 230gr winchester jhp
- mags: cmc 8rd powermag, wc 47d
- feeding is not an issue, it's the "not hitting what's under the sights" that's got me puzzled.
- as far as I know, the pistol is stock. (I'm the second owner)

I've found a couple of reports online about the wrong front sight being installed on some TLE's awhile back. Not sure if this is the same issue.

What I'm hoping y'all can help me out with is suggestions/known issues that I should be aware of/look into.

I plan to contact Kimber to see what can be done. Just trying to do some 'due diligence' here.

thanks!

[sportbiker929]

sight alingment

[Milsurps]

Good info here:

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=SIGHTS+FRONT

[numbskull]

@orcutt -- interesting. thanks for the link.

[redcliff]

I'm not so sure it's your sights; perhaps it's your pistol or the shooter.

First, a pistol is either off by 6" at 15 yards, or by 12"; it's not off by 6-12". Bring the target in closer to a distance you can get a more precise group size at.

Second, if the pistol was off 12" at 15 yards, you would need a front sight height correction of approximately .116. for a 4" barrel 1911 assuming the sight radius is approximately 5.25. Given that most Novak type 1911 front sights are only .170 to .200 tall in the first place thats a huge correction; a typical front sight correction would be more like .010-.025

I suggest you bring the target in closer a bit to a known distance and shoot from a supported rest position to see if you can determine where the pistol is really impacting at. Save the target, measure it accurately and use this calculator: http://www.sdmfabricating.com/sightcalc.html

It's not uncommon for people switching to a shorter, lighter 1911, possibly with a heavier trigger pull along with the heavier recoil, to flinch a bit till they get used to it. It's also possible that the barrel isn't fitted properly on your pistol and is causing the issue but thats a bit unlikely.

[skosh69]

[numbskull]

@redcliff -- thanks for the feedback and calculator link.

I think I'm gonna go shoot this pistol from a rest, and see what the deal is. It could totally be me thanks!

[numbskull]

Quick update:

While I'm waiting for UPS to deliver my el cheapo rest, I got impatient and went to my local indoor range.

Shot 1 box of 230gr fmj (Blackhills? factory not reload)
- @15 yards. I'm back to shooting about 3-6" groups (5 rounds each). So I'm leaning toward "problem with the shooter"; not the gun

- The 4" kimber is much 'snappier' feeling than my 5" sig

- This session, I noticed a major flinch: fte/smokestack caused a jam/ftf; I noticed I dipped the muzzle pretty severely when I went to pull the trigger. ** I swear I thought I had this anticipation flinch beat ** Oh well. More practice I suppose.

- I'm going to repeat this test when my rest comes in, and I'm inclined to find that the gun is dead nuts, and I'm just, well... nuts

[skosh69]

- The 4" kimber is much 'snappier' feeling than my 5" sig

The shorter the gun, the more snap/recoil....

Keep practicing, you're get better!

[Twystd1]

Have someone else load your mags and have them exchange 1 or 2 rounds in each magazine with snap caps.

You will quickly see what you are doing wrong when you pull the trigger on the snap cap. Have someone safely watch you from the side as you shoot each magazine. When the snap cap gets chambered and you pull the trigger. There is no recoil to mask what you are doing wrong for the milliseconds before and after firing the weapon. MANY of you problems will become readily apparent to you and your second set of eyes.

Now you can see what you are doing wrong AND address each issue.
I.E. stance, grip, trigger control, nose drop, pre flinch, negative anticipation problems, etc.... etc....

T

[XDJYo]

Snaps caps are a huge help! BUT! Only if you know there are no snap caps in there. On one range visit, I loaded 1 snap cap in each mag (not the first round as I could tell it was a snap cap in there). Shuffled all of the mags and started shooting. I started to over-correct and shot high! I almost NEVER shoot high. It's almost always dead center (horizontally) or low. Then, I shot a full mag of just regular rounds and I got back on center. 2" group at 10 yards. It was a very frustrating experience.

Another thing is dry fire practice. A LOT! I let too much time go in between range visits and with practically zero dry firing. Flinch came back.

I would strongly suggest getting a camera and have someone record your shooting. It will reveal all of your mistakes, how consistent you are with your stance, grip, posture etc as well as show any flinching or what not. Wear short sleeve shirts so that you can see what your muscles are doing. If you're tightening your forearm muscles, you're introducing movement into the pistol. Make sure your buddy is close enough to see it all.

My 2 cents.

[numbskull]

@Twysted + @XDJYo -- Excellent suggestions. Thanks!

[negolien]

Snaps caps are a huge help! BUT! Only if you know there are no snap caps in there. On one range visit, I loaded 1 snap cap in each mag (not the first round as I could tell it was a snap cap in there). Shuffled all of the mags and started shooting. I started to over-correct and shot high! I almost NEVER shoot high. It's almost always dead center (horizontally) or low. Then, I shot a full mag of just regular rounds and I got back on center. 2" group at 10 yards. It was a very frustrating experience.

Another thing is dry fire practice. A LOT! I let too much time go in between range visits and with practically zero dry firing. Flinch came back.

I would strongly suggest getting a camera and have someone record your shooting. It will reveal all of your mistakes, how consistent you are with your stance, grip, posture etc as well as show any flinching or what not. Wear short sleeve shirts so that you can see what your muscles are doing. If you're tightening your forearm muscles, you're introducing movement into the pistol. Make sure your buddy is close enough to see it all.

My 2 cents.

If you read his post you'd see he suggested having someone else load the mags that way you wouldn't know which one was the snap cap.

[XDJYo]

If you read his post you'd see he suggested having someone else load the mags that way you wouldn't know which one was the snap cap.

Yes, but not practical if you're by yourself. I was posting my experience. Even if someone else loaded snap caps in, I still would have 'known' a snap cap was hiding in the mag somewhere.

But, if you DO flinch on the snap cap, it's a huge tell! Lol!

[XDJYo]

@Twysted + @XDJYo -- Excellent suggestions. Thanks!

Hope it helps! Happy shooting and be safe.