9mm for CCW-over penetrate?

[rtc111]

I've heard 9mm is questionable to use for concealed carry because it over penetrates. The FBI says it penetrates even more than the .223. What do you guys think?

[Jacfourteen]

Maybe ball ammo, but it seems from what I've read that there isn't that problem with jhp.

[jbj]

Depends on the load. 147gr used to have a reputation for it, and ball is just not that great all around for SD. The newer 115 and 124 are liked b the agencies that use them. Authors like Ayoob track stats on actual shooting and will write about over-penetration issues.

[paul0660]

Quote the FBI source. 9mm more than .223?

Get a life.

[rtc111]

Quote the FBI source. 9mm more than .223?

Get a life.

This is not an argument, this is a fact surrounded by people more knowldegable, so do your research.

[socal147]

Hornady Critical Defense. Designed with correct penetration, reduced muzzle flash, and controlled expansion in mind. Pricey but ................................

[MXRider]

Quote the FBI source. 9mm more than .223?

Get a life.

I don't have time to search for it, but you might want to look at the FBI's FTU data on the matter. The OP is correct, and the 9mm is more lethal after penetrating intermediate barriers like walls of a home than the 5.56mm is.

After passing through a barrier the 5.56 round breaks up and veers of course significantly, which is why the AR platform is the LE teams weapon of choice for entry in homes where collateral damage needs to be kept at a minimum.

[MXRider]

DocGKR's take on the matter: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

[A-J]

I've heard 9mm is questionable to use for concealed carry because it over penetrates. The FBI says it penetrates even more than the .223. What do you guys think?

This is not an argument, this is a fact surrounded by people more knowldegable, so do your research.

OK, so maybe he didn't post a nice reply, but the question still remains - what is the source? You said "the FBI" but didn't link to anything. It's not unreasonable for a person to ask the OP to provide source info when they make a claim people are not familiar with. Sometimes they ask nice, sometimes they don't. This is life, and we all communicate in our own special way.

[MXRider]

OK, so maybe he didn't post a nice reply, but the question still remains - what is the source? You said "the FBI" but didn't link to anything. It's not unreasonable for a person to ask the OP to provide source info when they make a claim people are not familiar with. Sometimes they ask nice, sometimes they don't. This is life, and we all communicate in our own special way.

I really don't have the time to find it, but there is an official bulletin published by the FBI's Firearms Training Unit discussing this very topic. I can't find the exact PDF any more as it's buried under a mountain of forum topics just like this where it's referenced. Here is a similar copy of what was reported.

http://www.emich.edu/cerns/downloads/papers/PoliceStaff/Weapons%20,%20Technology,%20and%20Equipment/Ammunition%20for%20the%20Patrol%20Carbine.pdf

[scootle]

I don't have time to search for it, but you might want to look at the FBI's FTU data on the matter. The OP is correct, and the 9mm is more lethal after penetrating intermediate barriers like walls of a home than the 5.56mm is.

After passing through a barrier the 5.56 round breaks up and veers of course significantly, which is why the AR platform is the LE teams weapon of choice for entry in homes where collateral damage needs to be kept at a minimum.

Anyone who keeps up with ballistics research pretty much knows this is the case in the status quo. It's pretty widely accepted at this time. The DocGKR thread linked is a good place to start.

Part of it is the fact you have a 55-75gr .223/5.56mm bullet vs. a 115gr-147gr bullet... the lighter bullet will shed velocity once it hits any barrier a lot faster than the heavier one... despite the fact the former is coming out at rifle velocity vs. handgun velocity.

There is a running joke I heard that if a dude dives behind a couch or other soft barrier for cover, draw the pistol to take shots at him. Lol. It really is only half-joking, since soft-barrier penetration has been a long standing issue with the AR platform and only recently have specific ammo designs been manufactured to address this shortcoming.

As for the OP's question... I'm not sure what he's getting at... I doubt anyone is planning to CCW something in rifle calibers... pistols still have their place. Now if the question was which weapon system to grab in a HD scenario, sure, the AR has its merits, but so does a shotgun.

edit: here's a quote from another site, but it lacks the direct FBI source as well, although it too calls out the FTU research:

Q. Isn't 5.56 too dangerous to use indoors? Shouldn't I use a pistol or shotgun instead?

Virtually any kind of ammo, with the exception of light bird shot, will easily penetrate typical wall construction (two layers of wall-board separated by 3 to 4 inches of space). Testing has shown, however, that after penetrating a typical interior wall, a 5.56mm projectile will have less wounding potential than most common handgun or buckshot loads. This is true because the low mass of the bullet sheds velocity quickly, and velocity is its key wounding component. This doesn't mean that 5.56mm ammo isn't still potentially deadly, but that the severity of an injury is likely to be less from a 5.56mm bullet than from a 9mm, .40, .45, or #00 buckshot round. What is important is not the degree to which these rounds penetrate, but their "ex post lethality" or their lethality AFTER encountering wallboard or other cover/concealment.

The difference is so significant that the FBI and other ballistic experts recommend that law enforcement transition to handguns to "dig suspects out" of cover because of the superior penetration and wounding ability of handgun rounds over 5.56 or .223.

This, along with the increasing number of lawsuits from "friendly fire" submachine gun victims and 5.56mm's ability to penetrate ballistic vests, are some of the reasons that many SWAT teams are transitioning away from the 9mm MP5 and selecting 5.56mm carbines instead.

This is understandable given the longer barrel length and therefore higher velocity and consequently higher penetration of handgun rounds in submachine guns.

If our experience on the forums are accurate, most shot gunners and submachine gun fans receive this news poorly. It does seem counterintuitive since 5.56mm is a "high powered round." All we can say to this is that the FBI FTU fired hundreds of rounds through carefully constructed wall sections and then into gel. Ignore these results at your own peril.

[MXRider]

That part in bold is false considering rifle rounds offer superior ballistic performance over pistol rounds. What he meant to say was it offers superior wounding ability after passing through an intermediate barrier.

[dc2integra]

You learn something new every day .

[lerroy1119]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

Saw this yesterday about doctors view on bullet wound. Dont know how creditable it is, but interesting to watch.

[winnre]

I hate it when people hide behind things when I am shooting at them.

That's why we have .308!