Clarification on carry at work

[InvictusManeo]

I do not have a CCW, and have been looking into laws that apply to me as an unlicensed gun owner.

As I understand 12026, I can carry at work as long as the gun is locked up during transportation. Am I correct, or is there other legislation restricting this further? Also, does the law change depending on the nature of the place of business?

I work in a media studio tucked away in the back of a shopping center. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars in computer and A/V equipment, and a few nights a week, I am at work alone 4-5 hours after we officially close. The building has been recently vandalized (mostly minor graffiti) and last month the cell phone store next door was hit by a smash-n-grab. Needless to say, I'd be more comfortable if I could throw something on my hip when everyone leaves at night, and wanted to make sure I understood the legality of doing so.

Any input is appreciated

Quinn

ps- Could this be reasonable cause in the eyes of Ventura County to apply for a CCW?

[CWM4A1]

Do you own the business? If so, then you can legally carry w/o any issue. If not, business owner needs to give you the okay to carry while at work. Also, you can only carry inside your business. If you carry in common area you are violating the law (see the response few posts down regarding carrying while living in condo).

As far as good cause to apply for CCW, the first thing you want to find out is Ventura county's issuing policy. If they are as backward as LA county, don't even bother trying.

[Davidwhitewolf]

I do not have handy my copy of How To Own A Gun In California Without Going to Jail, but there's a discussion in there about how only certain types of businesspersons may have a loaded firearm at work. I believe you must either be an owner or a person who is the equivalent of the owner in terms of control (being able to hire & fire is, I think, one equivalent). Or you could have the owner's permission to have a loaded firearm.

I do not think that there is any exception allowing a business owner to carry concealed, even at work, without a CCW permit. Working at home would of course be a different story, but that's not your situation.

Again, I don't have the book handy, but that is my recollection of the state of CA law on this point.

FWIW, I am the equivalent of the owner at my place of employ, and I also made certain that our employee handbook only prohibited "unauthorized" weapons. I use this status mainly to allow me qualify to transport a handgun in my car from my home to my place of work and back. Most of the time the gun stays unloaded but accessible to me.

[InvictusManeo]

Thanks guys. I was aware of the requirement to keep the gun unloaded and locked away during transit and in common areas, but couldn't find anything about employment status/boss permission in the code. Maybe I was searching the wrong section. Would that permission have to be written into any kind of legally binding document, or just a "yeah I'm okay with that"?

[CWM4A1]

It would be best if you can get written approval from your boss for you to carry at his business. As for legal code, it's in CA penal code 12031:

"Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property. "

[GuyW]

It would be best if you can get written approval from your boss for you to CARRY at his business. As for legal code, it's in CA penal code 12031:

"Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from HAVING a loaded firearm within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property. "

"Have" has been deemed not to equal "carry".

[Scarecrow Repair]

Would that permission have to be written into any kind of legally binding document, or just a "yeah I'm okay with that"?

ALWAYS get written permission. Not because the other party might change their mind or is a famous liar, but because he might be on vacation or incapacitated -- what if he is taken ill and the cops bust you and your only word is of a man in a coma?

This applies to all cases. Always consider what would happen if the person giving oral permission is no longer available.

[Knauga]

Ventura does issue, they are even slower than San Berdo county. I don't know their issue criteria but it is not impossible for regular people to get a CCW there.

[Librarian]

"Have" has been deemed not to equal "carry".

You're missing a piece:

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Section 12031.

If it's YOUR business, you can carry, openly or concealed.

The 12031 'loaded' section says

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

A home or private business is, by definition, not a public place; you as owner can also carry LOADED.

2 cases apply: People v Melton 44 Cal.3d 713 (1988) and People v Barela 234 Cal.App.3d Supp. 15 (1991); according to PA Kasler, the critical items in Barela are

(1) the right to exclude others from using real property, and
(2) the right to control activities occurring on real property.

"Absent both of those rights, an employee cannot carry 'concealed weapons at work without a permit or license'."

Melton caused the legislature to add the 'carry open or concealed' language to 12026 in 1989. Barela was convicted of violating 12025 anyway - so it appears that CONCEALED carry is only for owners, while OPEN carry might be OK with permission from the owner.

[Kasler, Peter Alan, 1993, "Everything you've ever wanted to know about California Gun Laws".]

[GuyW]

I didn't miss anything - the OP is NOT the owner of the business...so he has no exclusion allowing carrying (of any description), but the code says "having..." can be allowed...

[Matt C]

Seems like if you were the manager and person in charge you would be ok as well...

[CSDGuy]

With the approval of the owner of the business (preferably in writing), the OP should be OK to open carry only while inside the business establishment itself. Concealed Carry by an employee without a CCW is illegal, as generally would Open Carry be without Owner permission.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

so it appears that CONCEALED carry is only for owners, while OPEN carry might be OK with permission from the owner.

Which is why you see so much open carry by gun store employees; whereas concealed carry make so much more sense.

Open carry by gun store employee = "Hey bad guys! If you're going to rob the place, shoot me first 'cause I can shoot back!"

[Matt C]

Which is why you see so much open carry by gun store employees; whereas concealed carry make so much more sense.

Open carry by gun store employee = "Hey bad guys! If you're going to rob the place, shoot me first 'cause I can shoot back!"

Or it could just be that open carry allows faster access, and provides a deterrent.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Deterrent.

I suppose. But I think most people would have absolutely got to assume that if you're working in a gun store, dammit, you're armed.

We always were back at National Shooting Club. We just never advertised.
Mmmmmh. Then again... there was that one time.