Looking for a S&W education

[CowboyShooter]

Hi all,

First post here although I've been busy following along for a while. Also, according to my wife, I spend waaaaaaaay too much time looking through the private sales. Finding this forum has been a great education for me as I've spent the last year going from a more or less "gun neutral" person to a strong pro-gun advocate. It's amazing how much my fervor has increased as I've educated myself on just how restrictive our fine state is towards gun owners.

Anyway, I'm just looking for some info on S&W revolvers (and yes, I've done searches but I guess I'm either too general or too specific to find what I'm looking for).

I want to find a 4" 686 in .357 for my wife. She's shot one at the range and it fits her hand good and she likes it. I don't know that much about all of the variations, but I know Smith makes a good gun and with the .357 she can practice w/ .38sp to save some money but still have a HD gun w/ stopping power.

So my question is this... can someone help me understand all of the "dash" issues w/ getting guns in the People's Republik? I found what looks like a nice 686-2 on gunbroker, but -2 isn't on the approved list. I know there is an issue around the date of manufacture as well w/ Smith's but don't know exactly what that means either. Is it part of the state's "safety test" issue?

Is the best strategy to look for guns only listed in my area so I can do a ppt? I know there are plenty of nice, used guns out there and hate to pay full retail for a new gun...

Let me say thanks in advance for any insight, suggestions or recommendations that you can offer. I've been suitably impressed with the vast amount of knowledge shared here in the forums. You guys rock!

[big jon]

I think you should consider all the PPT`s you can..you`ll never realy know whats going to show up at your FFL if you buy from GB or other auction...I like to do PPT just because of this reason I also have bought from GB so far I haven`t realy had bad luck but I would have turned down a couple had I had the choice.You have for sure made a great choice in hand guns I would have thought it to be too heavy but if She like`s it you on the right road

[t001]

Someone much more knowledgeable will be along shortly. Until then, let me pretend for a while:

The dash numbers on S&W's are used to denote progressive changes, be they design, mechanical, cosmetic, function, or whatnot. Therefore, you can get a quick read on the general age of a revolver by noting its dash number. Collectors have preferences about certain dash numbers because some years they are made better or worse than the others. Then there are the "no dashes" or "pre-" models, meaning that they are the older guns made before the dash or model number systems were implemented, generally in the mid-50's.

Now to answer your question. Unfortunately because of the stupid safe handgun roster, if it's not on the approved list, you can't bring it into the state. Some manufacturers on the list have more generic listings, so a model number may cover a few variations of that model. S&W's are quite specific, however, down to the dash numbers and other details. Therefore, if a 29-10 is on the list, you can't pass a 29-8 off as just a "Model 29". There are certain exemptions (LEO, intrafamily, .22, single-action revolver, etc.), but let's ignore those except for one: C&R. If the revolver is on the C&R list, then you can most likely import it. That generally means it's more than 50 years old, although there are newer ones that are listed as C&R due to specific reasons. So look for the "pre-" models. They ususally qualify.

[rivviepop]

OK, here's my pocket guide to looking for 686 revolvers around the 'net, I too am a fan of the 4" and under models only. It's confusing until you learn your S&W dashes and models for sure. Other S&W models follow this same formula in general when you look back in history but usually with different dash versions (i.e. what I say below for a 686-4 might be a 620-3 - same revisions, different dash number based on model).

1) anything older than a -6 is not on the roster because it doesn't include the 'lock' for the hammer. When looking at pictures on the 'net, look at the cylinder release knob - is there a tiny black hole (for a round key) right above it? Yes: -6, you can buy from anyone and it's legal, any auction site and so on. No: it's "pre-lock" and can only be sold via PPT to you by another CA resident. Finding 'pre-lock' 686s in 4" on the 'net in CA is challenging and they pop up very rarely - people seem to be hanging onto them.

2) if you do manage to find a -5 or lower for PPT transaction, try and shoot for a -3 thru -5; the -3 model introduced the spring on the hammer-mounted firing pin which keeps it aligned better, -2 and older models did not have this spring and led to the pin nose sometimes striking the bushing (in the frame) a little bit incorrectly, leading to increased wear and so on. The spring 'snaps' the pin back to the preferred position so it enters the bushing in a very neat manner.

3) if you find a -1 or "no dash" (just 686 alone) for PPT check for it's recall status; the -1 models had an issue and have to get the hammer (and other minor things) fixed, essentially they put a -2 hammer in there and call it a day. To know if the -1 has been warranty serviced open it and read the yoke where the model number is; it will either have an additional 'M' stamped in there (you can tell it was added after the initial stamping) or possibly have been re-stamped as a -2 model (rare).(1)

4a) advanced: -5 introduced the frame-mounted firing pin, the hammer is smooth and strikes a plate on the frame which pushes the pin into the primer (strike). The -4 and older models mount the firing pin on the hammer, when the hammer swings forward it inserts into a bushing on the frame, guiding the pin to the exact center of the primer to strike. When looking at 'net pictures look at the frame-edge of the hammer, do you see a tiny looking hole? This is the pin securing the firing pin itself, it helps you to identify the dash model sometimes.

4b) advanced: -5 also introduced the MIM (search Calguns for the technical details of what MIM is) parts, mainly the hammer and trigger externally and other esoteric parts internally (skipping details). When looking at a picture on the 'net, is the trigger/hammer smooth and shiny (forged) steel, or is it a blacky-dull colour? (MIM)

===
(1) http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....69&postcount=4

[rivviepop]

BillCA here on Calguns sent me this awhile ago in PM, a fantastic guide to S&W by one of our fine forum members. I take no credit for the below info:

====

10 tips for visibly ID'ing S&W's.
1. The model number is usually stamped on the frame behind the cylinder yoke that swings out. Format is MM-E where MM is the model number and -E is the "dash" engineering change number.

2. Current 3-digit model numbers use the leading digit to designate the frame material as follows;
* 3 = Lightweight Titanium Frame
* 4 = Aluminum alloy or Scandium & Aluminum alloy
* 5 = Blued Steel
* 6 = Stainless Steel

3. All S&W Stainless steel gun model numbers begin with a "6". The Model 60,63,64,65,66,67,68,625,627,629,657 etc. Most of the stainless guns have a blued counterpart. On 3-digit models, remove the "6" and you get the blued gun's model number -- i.e. A model 629 is a stainless version of the blued Model 29 (.44 Mag). A Model 625 is a stainless Model 25. Exception: 686 is numbered 586 in blue.

4. All current production .357 Magnums and guns in .38/.357 with a full length barrel underlug are L-Frames. Models 581/586 (blue), 681/686 (Stainless). Models 619 & 620 are also L-Frames with "traditional" barrel shapes.

5. The Model 60 is a 5-shot J-Frame "Chief's Special" with a 2" or 3" barrel.

6. The Model 66 is a stainless steel Medium (K) Frame .357 with target sights. It is the stainless version of the Model 19 (shown below)

S&W Model 19

7. The Model 67 is essentially a similar gun, but in .38 Special Only.

S&W Model 67
At-a-Glance: Target-sighted Magnum revolvers often have the shrouded ejector rod while .38 Special guns don't. Compare the Model 19 barrel to the Model 67. Fixed sight Magnums often don't have shrouds, such as Models 13, 65 and 58.

S&W Model 58 .41 Magnum (No Shroud)

8. The S&W K-Frame began life in 1899 as the main frame size for the .38 Special, and has been in constant production since. It's been seriously improved in the decades since, too. In the 80's, S&W addressed design weaknesses in the K-Frames used for Magnums by beefing up the frame. Because it is different enough, they designated it the "L" frame. S&W no longer makes a K-Frame .357 Magnum such as the Model 19 or 66.

9. Barrel lengths. S&W's history is full of different length barrels. 4" and 6" are typically standard "service" gun sizes. They sometimes produce 3" and 5" barrels on some guns. The 625 (.45 ACP) often has a 5" barrel. The 5" barrel (to many) is the best compromise between balance and accuracy. A 3" barrel is well balanced for a concealed carry gun.

10. Grip sizes - the S&W K & L frames use the same size grips. This means that if the grip on a 686 is comfy for you, so should any similar K-Frame grip. The N-Frame grip is slightly larger for more surface grip on the larger calibers. The "Magna" grips cover just the grip frame (see model 67 above) while the target grips are larger (see Model 19 above). Many current production come with rubber grips. Changing grips is easily done via a single screw or a small tool for Houge rubber grips.

There'll be a quiz on Tuesday.

In parting, here is a photo for you;

S&W Model 57 - .41 Magnum - Nickle Finish
Traditional barrel profile
Red-Ramp Front Sight
Target Rear sights (white outline not shown)
Wide target hammer
Wide, serrated target trigger
Large S&W Target grips

[bountyhunter]

Hi all,

First post here although I've been busy following along for a while. Also, according to my wife, I spend waaaaaaaay too much time looking through the private sales. Finding this forum has been a great education for me as I've spent the last year going from a more or less "gun neutral" person to a strong pro-gun advocate. It's amazing how much my fervor has increased as I've educated myself on just how restrictive our fine state is towards gun owners.

Anyway, I'm just looking for some info on S&W revolvers (and yes, I've done searches but I guess I'm either too general or too specific to find what I'm looking for).

I want to find a 4" 686 in .357 for my wife. She's shot one at the range and it fits her hand good and she likes it. I don't know that much about all of the variations, but I know Smith makes a good gun and with the .357 she can practice w/ .38sp to save some money but still have a HD gun w/ stopping power.

So my question is this... can someone help me understand all of the "dash" issues w/ getting guns in the People's Republik? I found what looks like a nice 686-2 on gunbroker, but -2 isn't on the approved list. I know there is an issue around the date of manufacture as well w/ Smith's but don't know exactly what that means either. Is it part of the state's "safety test" issue?

Is the best strategy to look for guns only listed in my area so I can do a ppt? I know there are plenty of nice, used guns out there and hate to pay full retail for a new gun...

Let me say thanks in advance for any insight, suggestions or recommendations that you can offer. I've been suitably impressed with the vast amount of knowledge shared here in the forums. You guys rock!

The dash numbers denote changes made in the manufacturing process, which may be major or minor changes depending on your perception. But, the gun model MUST be the exact one on the list or it can not be sold here (except on PPT).

You might want to let your wife fondle a "K" frame like the model 66 because I'd bet it sits in her hand better.

[CowboyShooter]

holy moley! I knew I was asking the right crowd!

Thanks to everyone for the info... VERY much appreciated!

[liketoshoot]

Good question CowboyShooter, I just got more ed-U-kated.
Thanks a lot for spelling that out and sharing rivviepop, that will help a lot of us looking at S&W's.

[rivviepop]

Good question CowboyShooter, I just got more ed-U-kated.
Thanks a lot for spelling that out and sharing rivviepop, that will help a lot of us looking at S&W's.

My pleasure - I learned most of it through Calguns members as well, this website is a goldmine of information with lots of people who know a lot of stuff. Search for an older thread of mine regarding repairing stainless revolvers (scratches/gouges, etc.), many members shared some great tips & tricks how to clean up an unloved revolver I bought at the end of the year last year.

[CowboyShooter]

4b) advanced: -5 also introduced the MIM (search Calguns for the technical details of what MIM is)

Rivviepop, I had to laugh at myself... I did the search and found a LOT of references to MIM but finally found the technical explanation. All the while I'm searching I'm thinking "Made In Mexico"... Glad to be edu-ma-cated now.

Thanks again for passing along all of the great info.

[phil conrad]

I would like to add my 2 cents worth here. I have a good friend who is a retired Smith armorer. He retired in 1993. I feel that he knows more about Smiths than most. He was there for the "glory" days. In a nut shell he feels the older the better. There is also a huge difference in each gun. I have some that he called ''monday" guns. These were on the sloppy side. I have also got some that are "wedensday" guns.
The monday guns require more work to get a smooooth triger on. Keep in mind a good gunsmith can work magic on any of them.
When he retired he really retired. As in I am sick of this. He will still do work for us old friends. I recently took him a new model 629 that had some issues. To say the least his was dissapointed. He is normally not a profane man. he was that day. He asked me who designed this? a lawyer or an accountant ?