Are all hollowpoints created equal?

[Fishslayer]

.The only bad ammo in 45 is one that doesn't function well through your gun.

Win PDX1 .45ACP doesn't work well in either one of my bottom feeders.

Horny XTP does...

[Bug Splat]

The first SD round I will test is the Ranger T's. If they function 100% in my pistol that is what I use. If they prove to not feed well I move to HST. After that I might move to DPX.

Reliability is everything. If it does not feed I don't care if it expands 10X its size on impact. My father-in-law only uses FMJ in his older 1911 which is his nightstand gun. It will not feed JHP ammo reliably so FMJ is better than nothing. I keep telling him to get a new gun but he is old school and if it was good enough for our boys in WW2, its good enough for him.

[teflondog]

Horny XTP does...

Where can one buy that?

[unusedusername]

Where can one buy that?

San Francisco.

Sorry for the threadjack

[QuarterBoreGunner]

My dos centavos:

The most important factors when choosing a self-defense round?

1) Reliability in your chosen firearm.

2) Your ability to put those rounds where you want them (shot placement).

Everything else is cherries on top.

[Sebass]

Well, a couple weeks back I went to the range and loaded up some of my Ranger T's that I had bought about 6 months back. I had 4 FTF's in my S&W 1911 . It never missed a beat before with FMJ's and continues to run FMJ flawlessly. So the only thing I can attribute the FTF's to is the Ranger T's. Good thing I only bought one box! I have a couple of boxes of Gold Dot now, but I think I'll wait till I get some more FMJ down the barrel before I try the Gold Dot's...

[BigDogatPlay]

To the OP's question... no. They are not all created equal.

I don't see any specifics from the OP about what the accuracy he is currently experiencing and why he feels that he needs to go in search of a different round. If you can keep controlled pairs inside the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 15 feet with your gun and ammo, that will work just fine. Concentrate on making that smaller. If you actually get into a gun fight the first thing that goes is fine motor skills so the tighter you can get it in practice, if you practice consistently, the more likely you'll deliver effective fire in the moment of need.

Go with what feels right. Remember its 45acp, if it doesnt expand, oh well. Then it becomes a fmj. Which will still put the bad guy down.

None of that is particularly good advice, some of it is flat out wrong. To build it into the OP's question / situation....

* Don't go with what feels right, go with what works. Just like ammo, every gun is somewhat different. What works in one may not work in the next. That means finding the round that gives the best accuracy with 100% flawless operation through your own gun. The upside to that is that you get to do a bunch of shooting to test until you settle on the most optimal round for your situation.

* It doesn't expand, oh well. Sorry but if it doesn't expand it's likely going to keep going and could lead to unintended consequences down range. You're morally and legally liable for every round you send down range, you want them to stay in what you shoot at.

* Then it becomes FMJ. Exactly what we want to avoid. FMJ is designed to make nice through and through holes that hopefully will hurt and bleed. A bad guy who is fighting you, with the table stakes being your life or his, is not necessarily going to be incapacitated by hits with FMJ. For that matter he might not be incapacitated by solid hits from hollow points... see FBI Miami as example.

* .45 will still put the bad guy down. No, it may well not. Even multiple hits may not end it. There is no certainty in a defensive shooting. You aren't going to know for sure what will happen until it's over.

[BrassCase]

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.40%20S&W

Try that link for test results of self defense ammo.

[Mr.1904]

To the OP's question... no. They are not all created equal.

I don't see any specifics from the OP about what the accuracy he is currently experiencing and why he feels that he needs to go in search of a different round. If you can keep controlled pairs inside the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 15 feet with your gun and ammo, that will work just fine. Concentrate on making that smaller. If you actually get into a gun fight the first thing that goes is fine motor skills so the tighter you can get it in practice, if you practice consistently, the more likely you'll deliver effective fire in the moment of need.



None of that is particularly good advice, some of it is flat out wrong. To build it into the OP's question / situation....

* Don't go with what feels right, go with what works. Just like ammo, every gun is somewhat different. What works in one may not work in the next. That means finding the round that gives the best accuracy with 100% flawless operation through your own gun. The upside to that is that you get to do a bunch of shooting to test until you settle on the most optimal round for your situation.

* It doesn't expand, oh well. Sorry but if it doesn't expand it's likely going to keep going and could lead to unintended consequences down range. You're morally and legally liable for every round you send down range, you want them to stay in what you shoot at.

* Then it becomes FMJ. Exactly what we want to avoid. FMJ is designed to make nice through and through holes that hopefully will hurt and bleed. A bad guy who is fighting you, with the table stakes being your life or his, is not necessarily going to be incapacitated by hits with FMJ. For that matter he might not be incapacitated by solid hits from hollow points... see FBI Miami as example.

* .45 will still put the bad guy down. No, it may well not. Even multiple hits may not end it. There is no certainty in a defensive shooting. You aren't going to know for sure what will happen until it's over.

Specific's i do not have. But what i do have is experiences.

My current HD/SD load is Hornady 200 grn FPD +p. I shoot these things awesome out of my Glock 21. Not so much out of my Glock 30 Which i am making my primary. At 12-15 yards i have trouble tracking them on the paper. No bueno. Time to switch it up.

That is the main reason i am making the thread because i was torn between paying for a name brand or buying in bulk. I went ahead and bought 100 rnds of Hornady 200 grn XTP hoping that it was the +p that was throwing me off with the short barrel. Time will tell. I am set to receive the new loads on friday and will test them accordingly at the range on paper. I am not so much worried about the gun eating specific forms of ammo because i have not experienced a feed reliability problem with any of my Glocks (Knocks on wood).

2) Your ability to put those rounds where you want them (shot placement).

Exactly what my issue is and why i am shopping for a new SD load.

he has a great channel reviewing factory rounds

Thanks buddy.


And thank you to everyone's .02. Just a waiting game for now.

[MrOrange]

I'm with dougtoni and QuarterBoreGunner. I find it amusing that people think that a bullet that expands more (and thus slows down, reducing penetration) is inherently better for SD than one that doesn't expand as much. The main reason it's preferable is to widen the wound, provided it continues to penetrate. If I'm trying to incapacitate an attacker, under penetration is a problem, not over penetration. This is what the FBI finally figured out was wrong with their testing criteria after Miami; before that they had only been concerned with expansion.

Since we're talking .45 here, I'd rather have a solid give two holes to let blood out and air in than a hollow-point that stops half-way through. Theoretical perfection in a SD round would be to expand to some impressive factor of original diameter, drive all the way through the target, and then drop to the ground after exiting.

I think dougtoni's point about feeling right was a reference to what you feel confident with, with is a huge factor. A presumption that he meant you should use a round that your emotions tell you to even if it doesn't function is, uh, interesting. Precision of course is another big part of getting that confidence.

The links posted by AJD and BrassCase are very informative, but they quote the same source. Directly or indirectly the studies referenced come to the same conclusion as several others that were based on actual shooting results, including autopsies: Any decent modern SD load in 9mm and up will do the job about the same, provided you get a couple in the engine room.


Side track, but I thought this was interesting, from AJD's link:

XD's are a no go for serious use--the inability to retract the slide without engaging the grip safety makes one-hand injured operation very difficult with the XD--this is a deal breaker for me. In addition, in some government tests, XD's (particularly the .40's) have broken a lot of parts compared to other pistols being tested...I'll take a 9 mm Glock or M&P any day of the week over an XD.

The M&P may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date. I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant issues. Up to this point, we have not seen any major problems with M&P40/45's--they just keep steadily improving. Some M&P9's exhibit accuracy issues at ranges beyond 15 yds--hopefully S&W will soon rectify this inconsistency.