S&W 686 or Kimber Warrior...

[Fherot]

I have a similar thread about the possible rifle I may DROS Saturday but wife, mom and friend's wife are chanting S&W instead. Then my friend and the women glanced at a Kimber warrior for sale in my area for around $7-800 and became undecided.

How is the fit and finish of the Kimber Warrior? I played with it a bit months ago and that KimPro finish is.. weird. Maybe I'd prefer stainless unless KimPro is really that rugged. is the rest of the gun typical Kimber quality despite extensive MIM parts?

Are all these parts eventually upgradeable and customizable on a 1911?

Or just not worry about all that stuff and grab the $750 S&W 686 7 shot 6"...

It's either of these two handguns or an evil long gun Saturday. (currently own only rimfires and a shotgun).

[tiko]

I have them both, can not get rid of one! The Kimber is already perfect, 4 lb trigger. Later you could change to lighter recoil spring and mainspring.

[Ub3rDorK]

Love my 686+ 6". Wouldn't give it up!

[jeffrice6]

For Kimber, I'd skip the warrior & get the TLE (checkered frontstrap)
686 go used & find a pre-lock.

[chris_m90731]

I have them both, can not get rid of one! The Kimber is already perfect, 4 lb trigger. Later you could change to lighter recoil spring and mainspring.

What exactly would a new/lighter recoil spring and mainspring do for my Kimber? (already love her)...

[jeffrice6]

What exactly would a new/lighter recoil spring and mainspring do for my Kimber? (already love her)...

Lighter recoil spring would only be for custom loads...
Lighter hammer spring can make for a lighter trigger pull....

[greg916]

I say get the kimber or some other model of kimber 1911. Don't get me wrong I almost dropped the cash for a s&w 627 pro 4" a few weekends ago. Real nice gun. I'm more partial to a magazine fed gun though.

[Equis]

Depends is it the Kimber Warrior II or just Warrior? If its the Warrior then that's one hell of a deal. I have a Warrior II, and the KimPro finish looks a bit caked on, but not that bad. I have no reference in regards to the 686.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

It doesn't get more apples versus oranges than this. Those two fine pistols are so different you can't even compare them.

[G-Man WC]

It doesn't get more apples versus oranges than this. Those two fine pistols are so different you can't even compare them.

My thoughts exactly. What is the intended use of the handgun?
Sidearm for hunting or target shooting = 686
Competition, Action Shooting, CCW = Kimber

-g

[ckprax]

What will it be used for? They are completely different guns. I am a huge revolver fan but I also really enjoy shooting 1911's. If the S&W was pre-lock it would be a no-brainer. Since it's new make sure you look it over very well, they have been having some quality issues lately.

If it is a range toy than either will be a good choice, ammo cost are about the same.

[Rhatical]

Had both, preferred the Kimber overall.

[glockman19]

Two different firearms, two different calibers...

I have a S&W 686+ 4"...I think the 4" is better balanced than the 6".
I also have a Kimbers...a few... 3", 4" & 5", and they are great guns too.

What are you looking for? Do you want a revolver or semi-auto pistol? Do you want .38/.357 or .45ACP?

Have you tried either at the range? What one do you shoot best?

You have many questions to answer...other than..."The family likes the look"

No doubt you have your eye on very nice firearms that will both serve you well.

[oghl888]

if you only have rim fire and a shotgun, then go with the 686. It's a lot more versatile and is much better for training your handgun skills and will prepare you much better for your future 1911 ownership.

[Kruzr]

Are all these parts eventually upgradeable and customizable on a 1911?

Or just not worry about all that stuff and grab the $750 S&W 686 7 shot 6"...

Would you "upgrade" the MIM made hammer, trigger, and rebound slide in the S&W also?

Ever see this? (Herb Berlin was S&W's Production Manager at the time he wrote this in 2003)

Originally Posted by Herb Berlin

I have read with much interest the many comments in this [S&W] forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts" and no one has said why. I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.

As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process, we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.

For the performance and durability issues, we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers successfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all important Single Action Sear that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanically few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or loose their "edge", the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts. Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light Magnum J frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change, judged on the basis of durability and feel, was a good one.

The second area of concern to S&W was our customers reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted, but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM.

The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part to part uniformity and the result of this of course is Revolver to Revolver consistency. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and Trigger Pull Monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view, it appeared a "Winner".

Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.

The term MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similarities to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even Titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a Wax) forming a slurry of sorts when heated, inject this mix into a precision mold, and finally form what is known as a"Green Part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough, the Green Part at this stage can be snapped in two with simple finger pressure. The Green Parts are then placed in a Sintering furnace filled with dry Hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the "Wax" in the Green Part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99% of the density of the older wrought materials and a metallurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionally, it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our Heat Treat facility for hardening, and in the case of Hammers and Triggers, Case Hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process, we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material was the older wrought style. Final hardness, case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.

Let's look for a moment at how we achieve dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, cutter wear, operator variations, etc. If every operation was done exactly right, each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part, but sometimes this didn't happen resulting in a rejected gun and rework, or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified, but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between $30,000 and $50,000. Once it is perfect, every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have in my view a wonderful manufacturing process.

Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process. Please forgive the spelling errors and misplaced punctuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!

Have a Great Weekend,
Herb

Additional Point:
Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel barstock. Raw MIM stainless steel injectable material costs $10.00/Lb."