Lets really examine OLL Pistol Lowers.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Ok, lets really look at this OLL Pistol Lowers issue. I need some convincing.

First, lets look at the CA approved list of handguns for sale.

PC 12125 states,

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

PC 12126 follows with,

12126. As used in this chapter, "unsafe handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, for which any of the following is true:
(a) For a revolver:
(1) It does not have a safety device that, either automatically in the case of a double-action firing mechanism, or by manual operation in the case of a single-action firing mechanism, causes the hammer to retract to a point where the firing pin does not rest upon the primer of the cartridge.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns pursuant to Section 12128.
(b) For a pistol:
(1) It does not have a positive manually operated safety device, as determined by standards relating to imported guns promulgated by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns pursuant to Section 12128.
(4) Commencing January 1, 2006, for a center-fire semiautomatic pistol that is not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have either a chamber load indicator, or a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center-fire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a detachable magazine.
(c) As used in this section, a "chamber load indicator" means a device that plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing chamber. A device satisfies this definition if it is readily visible, has incorporated or adjacent explanatory text or graphics, or both, and is designed and intended to indicate to a reasonably foreseeable adult user of the pistol, without requiring the user to refer to a user's manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself, whether a cartridge is in the firing chamber.
(d) As used in this section, a "magazine disconnect mechanism" means a mechanism that prevents a semiautomatic pistol that has a detachable magazine from operating to strike the primer of ammunition in the firing chamber when a detachable magazine is not inserted in the semiautomatic pistol.
(e) As used in this section, a "semiautomatic pistol" means a pistol, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, the operating mode of which uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of the trigger.

If we are just talking about a stripped pistol lower, does it meet the revolver or pistol rules? Or is it in its own catagory?

PC 12133 states,

12133. (a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications:
(1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
(3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Section 925 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

The problem I see right away is a stripped lower does not meet either of the rules for exemption in PC 12133 above because a stripped lower does not have a barrel. Unless you have a barrel on the pistol or revolver, you can't satisfy PC 12133. For the sake of anyone who has brought these in, I would like to be wrong here.

However, I know you cannot DROS handgun frames.

If we can bring in stripped AR15 pistol receivers, why can't we bring in just 1911 frames? After all, until the pistol frame has a 1911 slide on it, it isn't technically a handgun right?

Again, I would like to be wrong, but someone will need to show why these AR15 stripped pistol lowers are DROSable using the PC 12133 exemption when 1911s and other style pistols are not.

So with that being said, any and all AR15 type pistol lowers will need to come in with a single shot upper or single action revolver upper that meet the length requirements. I think I am correct that just plain frames won't work.

What else do we need to know other than the AW rules?

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

So here is a good question. By single shot pistol, do they mean a non semi-automatic pistol? So does single shot means you shoot it and you have to maually cycle the bolt? Or does it mean you can only have one round capable of going into the gun at a time. If it just means you have to manually cycle it, then I would think that you could go ahead and import fixed or even detachable magazine pistols without a gas tube with a 10 round magazine. What do you guys think?

Lets hash this thing out, I want there to be a pretty good source for this info now that some pistols are coming into the state.

[soopafly]

Wes,
If I recall correctly, Randal was talking about fully assembled, single shot pistols(built on an AR pistol lower), not stripped recievers. That would then fall under the single shot exemption, no?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Wes,
If I recall correctly, Randal was talking about fully assembled, single shot pistols(built on an AR pistol lower), not stripped recievers. That would then fall under the single shot exemption, no?

True I misread and already edited those parts out even before I saw your post. Thank you.

You know, FFLs could actually bring in pistol frames. They just couldn't DROS them until they had the correct parts on them.

However, I know Bill advocates against this on this single action "double action" revolvers for some reason not to mention the whole excise tax issue. Comments?

[ar15barrels]

Per federal law, a receiver is a receiver until it's assembled the first time.
A receiver is neither pistol or long-gun until it's assembled.

I don't know what this means for the purposes of importation, but those 50 stripped receivers you have are NOT pistols or rifles until they get assembled.

Manually operation means it is NOT semi-automatic.
No gas port in an AR barrel and it becomes a magazine-fed single shot.
Obviously you can't do this with a blowback gun like a 9mm.
They would have to be gas operated guns with no gas system installed.

[ar15barrels]

You know, FFLs could actually bring in pistol frames. They just couldn't DROS them until they had the correct parts on them.

If they are semi-auto pistol frames, they would have to be on the roster by specific make/model.
The single-shot exemption gets you past the roster.

You COULD import STI frames, install Pachmayer dominator uppers on them and sell them.
AS SOLD, they would meet all the requirements.
I don't think there's anything to stop someone from putting a different upper half on that frame after they already possess it.

[Sgt Raven]

For a single shot what about installing a Original Bob Sled with a lock and maybe a pin.


A Single shot loading device. Operates and feels like standard magazine. Plunger automatically activates the bolt stop and holds the bolt open for the next round. Loading channel perfectly aligns the round to enter chamber.

[tenpercentfirearms]

If they are semi-auto pistol frames, they would have to be on the roster by specific make/model.
The single-shot exemption gets you past the roster.

I don't think that is accurate. I think all frames are pretty much not on the approved list because they cannot meet the requirements to be on the list if they are just a frame. Look again at PC 12133. If you don't meet the length requirements, you cannot claim you are exempt. If your gun is not assembled, you don't meet the length requirements. Of course I would like to see that part discussed some more.

[Mr. Ed]

What would happen if an FFL attempted to DROS a non-rostered handgun/semi/OLL pistol frame? Would DOJ reject the DROS?

[Fjold]

Manually operation means it is NOT semi-automatic.
No gas port in an AR barrel and it becomes a magazine-fed single shot.

A manually operated magazine rifle could be a a single action, not a single shot.

A "single shot" firearm means that the gun only holds one cartridge and must be reloaded manually for each shot. Any magazine fed firearm is a repeater.

The Remington XP (bolt action) pistol was made in single shot configuration and in a magazine fed version. The model with the magazine was listed as a repeater

[Toolbox X]

This is how I interpret AR pistols in CA.

The important code is this:

PC 12133
(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

A stripped AR pistol receiver is not legal to import because it does not meet these requirements.

However, an complete AR pistol, with an upper that has no gas system, and a fixed single shot magazine, would be legal to import into CA, and register as a pistol.

Personally I think it would be wise to use a single shot bob sled magazine for this configuration, versus using a 10 or 20rd mag rigged to be a single shot mag. That way there can be no question as to whether or not it is single shot.

It is important for people to note that the evil pistol features listed in 12276.1, namely the threaded barrel and shroud, are only illegal when the pistol is semi-auto with detachable mags.

-Grant

[bwiese]

Wes,

You're correct in that you can't bring in, for FFL transfer, pistol lowers/frames for sale - even if they're "approved" (Rostered) or will be used to form an exempt firearm...

• Rostered handguns must be sold or resold to FFL (except via PPT/inheritance, etc) in
  the form in which they were approved (other than trivial matters of grips/sights). Changes
  like a 3rd party bbl, into a caliber not approved, bbl shortened, 3rd party trigger group, mag
  disco safety removed, etc. mean the gun isn't transferable as a Rostered gun and can only
  be PPT'd, etc.
  
  
• Thus pistol frames are not FFL-transferrable either - even Thompson Contender frames.
  This in fact lead to a DOJ memo in Spring of 2006 (one of the few formal ones that was
  actually signed & dated and was not a "FUD memo") alerting dealers that single-shot
  handgun frames (like the T/C) are not exempt single-shot handguns because they are
  not complete handguns. (This actually makes sense, given the laws in place.)

To legitimately get OLL pistol lowers into CA, one must (pick one)...

• inherit them;
  
  
• be the purchaser in a PPT transaction, where the person somehow legally had the
  pistol lower in CA or moved into CA with it;
  
  
• receive them as part of an authorized interfamily transfer per 12078PC (parent/child/
  grandparent/grandchild - which means no uncles, brothers, cousins, kissin' cousins,
  step-half-sister-in-laws, something w/the same chromosome count that walked by your
  house in backwoods Kentucky, etc.)
  
  
• be imported as a full, complete, operational single-shot pistol, dimensionally compliant,
  as per 12133PC exemption.

There are folks here that are in fact doing the last item listed above. Their single-shot pistol is (or should be!) comprised of:

• a pistol upper with a minimum barrel length of 6" and also long enough to render a 10.5" min.
  overall length (measured parallel to the bore), as per 12133PC dimensional requirements for
  exempt single-shot pistols;
  
  
• a single-shot 'sled' fixed in place with a mag lock so tool is required (perhaps not necessary,
  but staying on the clean & bright side). A magazine cannot thus be used without disassembly
  and reconfiguration of that firearm.
  
  
• the upper has a gas system not present and blocked - gas port plugged by 1/2" gas tube
  front stub rotated 180 degrees so tube gas hole not aligned with gas hole in gas block;
  
  
• such a single-shot pistol doesn't require a buffer/spring, so I think it's prudent it should not be
  present in such single-shot pistol when imported. If you also had a bolt carrier without a gas
  key, so much the better.

The above renders a pistol dimensionally compliant, single shot in both capacity as well well as operation, as well as a complete inability operate in semiautomatic mode. Quite a few parts would be required to change to semiauto/fixed mag mode; constructive possession is not applicable so as long as you're well away from multi-shot/gas cycling, you're good.


As most all here know, there is no law prohibiting modification of handguns - either Rostered, unrostered, or 12133PC-exempt - once they are in an individual's possession.

The 12133PC exemption applies only for time of importation and thru DROS. (We may have a bit of wiggle room there on importation, but let's not go there - for now, handguns based on OLLs to be sold to individuals in CA should be imported into the state as complete exempt single-shot pistols not requiring any further mods within CA by local transfer FFL.) Once the purchaser has the exempt pistol in his hands he is free to change it into whatever legal configuration he chooses to do so.

Remember, the unsafe handgun laws only apply to FFL sales and not to actual guns-in-possession. You're free to put that 22 kit on your old 1911, chop your S&W wheelgun to a weird bbl length, convert that Ruger GP100 to a 5-shot 10mm beastie, convert a Ruger Blackhawk single-action to a double-action (yep, it's been done!), etc. The only real limitations are that you can't make a 45LC accept a 410ga shotgun shell, or have a smoothbore pistol - along with continuing to observe the CA AW as well as NFA laws.

[bwiese]

I think all frames are pretty much not on the approved list because they cannot meet the requirements to be on the list if they are just a frame. Look again at PC 12133. If you don't meet the length requirements, you cannot claim you are exempt. If your gun is not assembled, you don't meet the length requirements. Of course I would like to see that part discussed some more.

No 'frame' is 'approved' - even if the name appears on the Roster.

A gun is either Rostered as a complete gun, or exempt for one of the reasons in 12133PC. [/quote]

Rostered 'frames' are not complete pistols, and would not be sellable in the form that that make/model was drop-tested.

You COULD import STI frames, install Pachmayr dominator uppers on them and sell them. AS SOLD, they would meet all the requirements.

Correct! Somewhat similar to Pachmayr Dominator, there is also the Springfield Armory "SASS" system.

Also, that STI frame could be rendered 12133PC-exempt when equipped with a 6+" 22Short bbl without feedramps and with a very stiff recoil spring, and a mag filler locked in place. The lack of ramping means ammo can't feed, the fixed mag filler emphasizes that status, and the strong spring means the slide won't budge when fired with 22Short ammo.

I don't think there's anything to stop someone from putting a different upper half on that frame after they already possess it.

Absolutely correct. Once you own a handgun you are free to modify it into any other configuration (just as long as it doesn't violate CA AW DD or NFA laws) - single vs double action, caliber changes, bbl lengths, etc.

You know, FFLs could actually bring in pistol frames. They just couldn't DROS them until they had the correct parts on them.

However, I know Bill advocates against this on this single action "double action" revolvers for some
reason...

The FFL can do that for LEO sales. I am unclear if importing an 'unsafe handgun' for subsequent conversion to exempt status and sale to a regular (non-LEO) person causes us trouble with the introductory material in 12125PC. Thus - for now - I advocate that 12133PC-exempt firearms exist in that state prior to importation to CA. This does not just apply to exempt SA revolver matters, but also exempt single-shot pistols too.

...not to mention the whole excise tax issue. Comments?

Glad you brought this up.

Yes, Fed excise tax is an issue for someone assembling these from parts or - in this case - the outside-CA FFL supplying them into CA. Such an FFL should have a manufacturing permit and pay the 10%/11% Pitman-Robertson(?) excise tax. [As I recall Xenophobe saying, you get to do up to 49, then on the 50th back taxes become due & payable, something like that.] That adds further unclarity to 'mfg' in CA, although we know that we are allowed to make our own handguns per Alison's opinion letter early in 2006.


For now:

• the cooperating FFL outside CA should be a mfgr so he can take stripped OLLs and make
  them into pistols, in volume, without worrying about mfg excise tax.
  
  
• exempt pistols should enter into CA in that exempt form and the local CA FFL transfer dealer
  should not have to do anything to that pistol to make it exempt.
  
  
• the purchaser is generally free to reconfigure his exempt pistol, after DROS/delivery, to his
  heart's desire (as long as all other CA AW/NFA laws are observed...)

[bwiese]

Don't forget: When delivering a handgun to a customer, the FFL must perform the safety demonstration (you know, load, unload, all that stuff). This requires a fully functional pistol. This is one of the reasons that a non-functional handgun can't be brought into the state, even if after completion it were to become an exempt gun (like the single-action or single-shot).

Good catch, yet another reason.

[ar15barrels]

On excise tax, only manufacturers are required to pay it, not individuals.
If you have a friend out-of-state and he will assemble you a proper single-shot AR pistol, it can be shipped to an FFL for transfer to you under the single-shot exemption.

[bwiese]

On excise tax, only manufacturers are required to pay it, not individuals.
If you have a friend out-of-state and he will assemble you a proper single-shot AR pistol, it can be shipped to an FFL for transfer to you under the single-shot exemption.

Good point. I think when these things move in more bulk, though, that friendly outta-state FFLs will be assembling these, and we wanna ensure they do things right.