Unbranded Pistol Illegal?

[dwightlooi]

Is an unbranded pistol illegal?

Here's the deal... the pistol -- along with a few other guns -- is willed from grand father to grandson as part of the estate when the grandfather passed away. The recipient does not know much about the origins or specifics of the gun except that it is in the house and the will said that they are supposed to go to him.

The pistol is a chrome finish 1911 "style" pistol. It is in very good condition and looks like it may have been refinished at some point. The problem is that that is NO BRAND or BRAND logo anywhere on the gun. There is what appears to be a serial number on the frame 2351161. The slide is utterly unmarked. The barrel says BAR-STO 45ACP. The slide is completely devoid of any brand or markings.

Is it legal to own the pistol or to act stupid and fill out the form stating BAR-STO as the brand and listing 2351161 as the serial #?

[luchador768]

Bar-sto is a barrel maker, the serial number is all you really need. The grandson may have lucked out and inherited a nice custom 1911. Is it a full size? A pic might make it easier to identify.

[dwightlooi]

Bar-sto is a barrel maker, the serial number is all you really need. The grandson may have lucked out and inherited a nice custom 1911. Is it a full size? A pic might make it easier to identify.

Don't have it handy. I looked at it and wrote down the serial but didn't take a picture. Maybe I can ask him to take one.

Still doesn't change the fundamental problem in that there is no "brand" on it. I know Bar-Sto is a barrel maker not the maker of the gun itself so does the to be owner. He wants to just "register it as a Bar-Sto" pistol, but won't that be technically falsifying the make and model? Guessing at the make and calling it a Springfield or Colt or whatever doesn't make it less problematic either.

[Librarian]

Fill out the OPLAW form 'no make', 'no serial'.

Custom things without names or serials at least were legal before 1968; if it were Grandfather's, could easily be that old - and those are still legal now.

[chrisf]

Call the cops on yourself and see :-)

[redcliff]

Is an unbranded pistol illegal?

Here's the deal... the pistol -- along with a few other guns -- is willed from grand father to grandson as part of the estate when the grandfather passed away. The recipient does not know much about the origins or specifics of the gun except that it is in the house and the will said that they are supposed to go to him.

The pistol is a chrome finish 1911 "style" pistol. It is in very good condition and looks like it may have been refinished at some point. The problem is that that is NO BRAND or BRAND logo anywhere on the gun. There is what appears to be a serial number on the frame 2351161. The slide is utterly unmarked. The barrel says BAR-STO 45ACP. The slide is completely devoid of any brand or markings.

Is it legal to own the pistol or to act stupid and fill out the form stating BAR-STO as the brand and listing 2351161 as the serial #?

Is the frame marked US Property? The serial number you have is in the range of Colt manufactured 1911a1's from 1945. WWII 1911a1's didnt have the manufacturer named on the frame; you need to i.d. them with serial number ranges and inspector marks.

[mugiwara]

the frame is the serialized part of 1911s.

[littlejake]

the frame is the serialized part of 1911s.

True, but USGI 1911s were always serial numbered on the frame; but carried the maker's roll mark on the slide. So, it could be a Colt with a custom slide.

I've seen where the DOJ AFS printout for a USGI 1911 pistol does not reflect a manufacturer -- just says "ANY MILITARY ISSUE" -- even though a manufacturer was listed on the original DROS.

I know that doesn't answer the OP's question -- Librarian has the closest answer -- but, perhaps the SN on the frame should be reported; and just hte MFG listed as "unknown."

[PEZHEAD265]

Is the frame marked US Property? The serial number you have is in the range of Colt manufactured 1911a1's from 1945. WWII 1911a1's didnt have the manufacturer named on the frame; you need to i.d. them with serial number ranges and inspector marks.

A lot of people had the US Property mark polished off, or it might be covered by the chrome plating.

[Lead Waster]

A lot of people had the US Property mark polished off, or it might be covered by the chrome plating.

A touch off the topic, but when something is marked "US Property", and you buy it from the gov't as surplus or whatever, it's fair to say that it is NOT US property, right? I know people leave that on for authenticity. What was the purpose of this mark?

[littlejake]

A lot of people had the US Property mark polished off, or it might be covered by the chrome plating.

I've seen several examples of that. Difficult to remove without thinning the metal of the frame.

A touch off the topic, but when something is marked "US Property", and you buy it from the gov't as surplus or whatever, it's fair to say that it is NOT US property, right? I know people leave that on for authenticity. What was the purpose of this mark?

The original contract required the manufacturer to mark the 1911 as US Property. True the marking means nothing as far as ownership today. For a collector, it's part of what wants to see as to original markings.

US Property was marked on the frame, left front . Later it was moved to just above the serial number.

[redcliff]

True, but USGI 1911s were always serial numbered on the frame; but carried the maker's roll mark on the slide. So, it could be a Colt with a custom slide.

I've seen where the DOJ AFS printout for a USGI 1911 pistol does not reflect a manufacturer -- just says "ANY MILITARY ISSUE" -- even though a manufacturer was listed on the original DROS.

I know that doesn't answer the OP's question -- Librarian has the closest answer -- but, perhaps the SN on the frame should be reported; and just hte MFG listed as "unknown."

I agree that any serial number on the frame should be reported.

For some of the other posters, I'm well aware that the US Property engraving has sometimes been removed by owners; however if the OP's pistol still has US Property stamped on it, along with the serial # he reported, it would definitely identify the pistol as a Colt 1911a1 from 1945. Good pictures of any inspector marks remaining on the pistol's frame and of the serial number font might also be enough to verify its a Colt 1911a1 absent the US Property Markings.

[Marlin Hunter]

Is an unbranded pistol illegal?

Here's the deal... the pistol -- along with a few other guns -- is willed from grand father to grandson as part of the estate when the grandfather passed away. The recipient does not know much about the origins or specifics of the gun except that it is in the house and the will said that they are supposed to go to him.

The pistol is a chrome finish 1911 "style" pistol. It is in very good condition and looks like it may have been refinished at some point. The problem is that that is NO BRAND or BRAND logo anywhere on the gun. There is what appears to be a serial number on the frame 2351161. The slide is utterly unmarked. The barrel says BAR-STO 45ACP. The slide is completely devoid of any brand or markings.

Is it legal to own the pistol or to act stupid and fill out the form stating BAR-STO as the brand and listing 2351161 as the serial #?

Back in WWII there were many "lunch box 1911" pistols around. What happened is that employees at the gun factory would leave their lunch boxes open and parts would just fall in. They would bring their lunch boxes home and discover that a slide, frame, spring, or barrel had fallen into their luch box. After a few months, they would have enough parts to make a gun. Usually the guns didn't have serial numbers because the parts fell into their lunch box before it could be stamped or registered as a finished part. A lot were unfinished by the factory so they were nickle, chrome, or spray painted.

[littlejake]

Example of AFS printout where a 1911A1 is identified as "any military issue"
(redacted of course)

[dwightlooi]

Thanks a lot guys...

I think registering as a USGI / Military Issue 1911A1 with the serial number should be fine. I just don't want the guy to commit fraud or turn it into contraband because of perfectly innocent paperwork BS.