1911 recoil question

[Paradiddle]

I have a relatively stock 1911 full size. I remember reading somewhere either here or at thehighroad about replacing a spring that drastically reduced recoil and muzzle flip.

I can't find it when I search. What spring is this and what is everyone's opinion on this?

The recoil is totally controllable, but I want to compete with it next year at least once and follow up shots are much slower then with my 9mm or my revolver.

Thanks

[Exiledviking]

I believe you are looking for either the Sprinco or the STI RecoilMaster.

Another option is the "original style" firing pin stop offered by EGW.

[TMC]

This will cause a bunch of guys to wig out but they need to remember that you're not asking what what spring JMB used when he designed the gun or what you should have in the gun if you taking an insurgent stronghold in Iraq or any of those discussions.

Best way to reduce the amount of gun movement is to use lighter recoil springs. I use 10lb springs in my 40 cal guns. If you have a 45 I'd try a 12 and see how you like. If its a quality gun you will not hurt anything with light springs. You don't need a gizmo just lighter springs

More info on this subject than you can deal with can be found on Brians Forum in the Springs area. Start with the FAQ thread.

[j1133s]

I have a relatively stock 1911 full size. I remember reading somewhere either here or at thehighroad about replacing a spring that drastically reduced recoil and muzzle flip.

I can't find it when I search. What spring is this and what is everyone's opinion on this?

The recoil is totally controllable, but I want to compete with it next year at least once and follow up shots are much slower then with my 9mm or my revolver.

Thanks

Your stock 1911 isn't compensated, so to reduce recoil and muzzle flip, I'd recommend downloading the load and using weaker recoil springs. IPSC/IDPA uses something called power factor which favors heavier bullets and slow speeds. You can also use a weaker main spring in combination with above or just by itself, which also decreases trigger pull weight. Unfortunately, the above will make your slide cycle even slower.

For fast followup shots, are you actually limited by the slide's speed? If you are not looking and following the front sight, you may actually not be limited by the slide speed at all.

I don't find muzzle flip to be much an issue with followup shot speeds, I see the front sigh go up then down all by itself and use a fairly neutural grip where I don't do any push/polling when firing as soon as the sight comes down I pull the next shot. I'm no expert, but my shots sounded pretty fast

[Kruzr]

Lighter springs reduce the recoil impulse, not the recoil. This means you are exposed to the force for less time. The difference in the transmitted force isn't much by going down a few pounds in spring weight but the recovery time is reduced so you feel like it's less.

A square bottom FP stop plate will also help. This requires the gun to use more force to cock the hammer and transmit less to you, the shooter....but again, it's not that much. A proper high thumb grip is the best way to control muzzle flip.

If you've never seen it, watch the video on You Tube by Todd Jarrett. It's well worth the 4 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

If you do go down in spring weight in a .45 1911, then you should shoot reduced loads. No matter who's gun it is, if you use a too light a spring with full power loads, you will batter the frame. (Factory loaded 230 gr. .45 has a PF typically in the 195 - 205 range.)

[Paradiddle]

Thanks guys. I've worked on my grip and it's reasonble and "proper". I shoot mostly factory WWB hardball - nothing fancy.

I'll try a lighter recoil spring and see if I like it. Frankly I'm not interested in the high-dollar recoil spring kits because I will probably end up staying with my CZ for IPDA/IPSC - I just play for fun and training.

Thanks and keep any suggestions coming.

JEff

[ThomasMagnum]

The best thing for me was the installation of a full-length guide rod. It really made the recoil and flip much more manageable.

[COILSPRING]

+ 1 more for the EGW firing pin stop!!!

Another option is the "original style" firing pin stop offered by EGW.

IMHO this is the best advice you have received. The stop with less radius at the bottom makes quite a difference. Another example of John Browning's genius... Father Knows Best!

[TMC]

Unfortunately, the above will make your slide cycle even slower.

How much slower? Most semi-auto pisols regardless of caliber cycle in out .03-.04 seconds, the fastest split I every ever seen shot is about .08 and that wasn't aiming. So does it matter if its .005 slower?

All of this is perception of what is happening and it varies from person to person. You need to test different things for yourself and see if it makes a difference to you.

[bountyhunter]

I have a relatively stock 1911 full size. I remember reading somewhere either here or at thehighroad about replacing a spring that drastically reduced recoil and muzzle flip.

I'll wager they were talking about the dual spring recoil assemblies made by Springco and Norecoil.com. IMHO, the "drastic recuction" in recoil claimed by some is about 99% psychological. I have used several of them in my 9's and 40's and the difference is negligible. What they do which is worth the $60 is they absolutely prevent the slide from hitting the frame because the variable rate spring load gets soo stiff at the end the slide stops just short of impact. Eliminates frame battering, worth the $$.

[OutlawDon]

Get the EGW firing pin stop as stated. http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_...products_id=36

I have that, and also a Wolff variable 16.5 recoil spring and a Kimber 3.4oz tungsten full length guide rod in my Kimber Stainless II. Shoots like a dream...noticeably softer. I also have the EGW thick flange barrel bushing with the spring plug to go with it, but that's more for accuracy and a tighter barrel-to-frame fit then for recoil reduction. Looks very cool though.

This is a good posting I found on 1911forum.com...

"Recoil springs do not affect total recoil to any great extent. They can prolong (heavier spring) or shorten (lighter spring) the cycle time of the slide. This in effect alters the way recoil is perceived by the shooter but does not change the total recoil. The easiest ways to decrease total recoil are to add more weight to the gun, lighten your loads, add a compensator, and/or port the barrel and slide. Many of these features are found on "race guns" where the name of the game is speed. Hope this helps."


*Given this info, I do think the tungsten guide rod and the magwell I installed helped out somewhat. -Don





Notice the thicker flange bushing in the front of the gun?

[10ring]

Follow Outlaw Don's advice...

I have the same (EGW sqr bottom FS stop, Tungsten full length Guiderod, 14lb spring)
Smooths out recoil and helps follow up shots.
I use WWB rounds.

[TMC]

If you are holding the gun any force is transmitted to you. In competition shooting most people want the gun to shoot softer (less preceived recoil) and faster sight recovery, at least that's what I want.

When the gun cycles the slide moves to the rear pushing against the springs and you and the muzzle rises, then on its way back it runs forward and slams shut causing the muzzle to drip. If you use heavy springs both of these actions are enhanced. Lighter springs cause the slide to move quickly to the rear and then with less momentum going forward when it closes the muzzle doesn't dip. The biggest hit is the slide comming to a stop but with a shock buff (alum or poly) the hit lessened. This is why most custom competition guns have lightened slides, to reduce the moving mass.

As for frame battering its not likely. The only parts that come into contact are the head of the guide rod which is already resting against the frame and the spring tunnel on the slide which will hit the head of the guide rod. If there is a shock buff or the surfaces are flat there will not be any dammage. Sprinco's and the like do not stop the slide short of full travel but if you have one that does your gun will be very unreliable.

As for reduced loads don't worry about it. There are thousands of guns with 10's of thousands of major power factor loads through them with no significant wear. You will wear out the barrel shooting jacketed bullets long before you will wear out the frame and slide. I personally know guns with light springs that have over 80,000 rounds through them and they are fine.

Go get some different springs, go to the range and shoot them back to back and see what you think. I may not be an expert but I am a Master class shooter in a couple of different games, I've built a few guns and I've tried allot of stuff. Like I said before its all perception. You need to get your gun shooting right for you and then practice like crazy. What you will find once you have 20-30K rounds through one gun is you will be able to tell the differene when you shoot a different one. There is no "part" to improve your shooting only parts that make the gun shoot better for you.

Flame on!

[bountyhunter]

If you are holding the gun any force is transmitted to you. In competition shooting most people want the gun to shoot softer (less preceived recoil) and faster sight recovery, at least that's what I want.

When the gun cycles the slide moves to the rear pushing against the springs and you and the muzzle rises, then on its way back it runs forward and slams shut causing the muzzle to drip.

An auto has two distinct recoil impulse going back:

1) At discharge there is the recoil pulse from the gun firing. It's peak amplitude is reduced if the slide can unlock and start moving rearward at a lower energy level... it acts to spread the energy out in time, and thus reduce it's peak amplitude.

2) There is a recoil pulse when the slide hits the frame. A very stiff spring or a dual-spring systemt can prevent the impact using a variable rate (duual spring) setup that gets progressively stiffer as the slide goes back. Their recoil profile will show a steeper recoil "ramp" as the slide goes back, but the second impact pulse is not there.

The first (discharge) pulse is almost always higher than the second. Going to a lighter recoil spring reduces the first peak, and that's why most comp shooters use VERY light recoil springs (like 10# with full power .40 ammo).

As for the "hit" when the slide comes back into battery: it's very much less than the initial pulse at discharge because so much energy is burned up in friction and the ejection/loading of the rounds. Also, the recoil spring is weakest at that point because it has the least compression. In many cases, a slight reuction is spring may have the slide stopping just short of battery.

Guns usually shoot "flatter" by lightening the recoil spring below stock weight.

[TMC]

Bounty,

We're splitting hairs here. My point is if someone wants his gun to "feel" softer and flatter and be easier to track the front sight, lighter springs will help, at least they do for 90% of the folks who try them.

I respectifully disagree about the slide not hitting the frame/guide rod with a sprinco or dual rate spring. If a gun has this situation it will be very unreliable due to ammo power, firmness of grip etc as the slide speed will vary possible to the point of short stroking. For the gun to be reliable with a wide variety of ammo and shooters the slide has to hit the stop in its rear ward travel with some energy.