Very Small Pistol

[saki302]

+1 on shot placement, a miss (or a 'wing' shot) with a .45 is worse than a solid hit with a .22.

Pick the small gun you can shoot best with, and shoot quickly with. If the PM9 kicks too hard, try somethign smaller. 7 shots of something small in his face beats 1 hit and 6 body misses with a full caliber.

As far as pistol rounds go, nothing is a guaranteed stop- just shoot the biggest round you're comfortable with.

-Dave

[Glock22Fan]

+1 on shot placement, a miss (or a 'wing' shot) with a .45 is worse than a solid hit with a .22.

+1

7 shots of something small in his face beats 1 hit and 6 body misses with a full caliber.

+1, but with the observation that 7 hits with a middling caliber beats both of them.

As far as pistol rounds go, nothing is a guaranteed stop- just shoot the biggest round you're comfortable with.
-Dave

Agreed. But if you aren't comfortable with something at least .38 sized, then maybe you should practice more. If you are too sick/old/disabled to handle that sized caliber, then you will have to compromise - but I don't see that as ideal if you can avoid it.

[Fjold]

Where mouse guns come in handy is when for whatever reason you can't carry a full sized pistol. The mouse guns let you carry something rather than go unarmed.

Walk around outside in Kern County during the summer. You can spot the CCW holders by the untucked bowling shirts or the metro-sexual looking fanny packs.

[rksimple]

How do you turn "Mouse gun bullets" into "38's and 9's" (which usually do expand)



I never made a blanket statement about anything ALWAYS being more effective. I'm much too old to make such a black and white statement. However, I firmly believe that a .357/.40/.45 is FAR more likely to be effective than a .22/.25. I have never ever seen any evidence to suggest that, placed in the same position in the body from the same distance, the smaller caliber is going to do MORE harm.



Sorry, but that wouldn't convince me that .22/.25 is more lethal than .45 - just that some guys are luckier than others.

I think we're on the same page. Note what I said directly after that quote about watching guys die, hit with 22's and 25's. I did not mean change your mind to thinking the 22/25 was more effective, that it would change your mind to thinking about shot placement much more than caliber. Read my post earlier in this thread. I distinctly said use something 38 cal and above. Those are the only calibers I would trust to consistently penetrate to vitals, especially with bones and cartilage in the way.

In your post, I took issue with how you did make generalizations (how the 38 failed in the Philippines, special forces going to 45 over 9mm, 9mm taking 15 rounds to stop guys). Right after you mentioned all of this, you started talking "mouseguns." To you, is the 38 or 9mm a mousegun? NOWHERE in that post did you mention 22's or 25's. It seemed like you lumped 9 and 38 into the mousegun category. Thats probably not what you meant.

I've no idea who Warren Sapp is, but I would observe that it's taken 15 rounds of 9mm to stop some bad guys (a documented case a few years back when a woman was forced to empty her Browning into her ex before he got the message.)

The army switched from .38 to .45 because .38 didn't cut it (in the Philipines). More recently they switched back to the beloved (by some) 9mm. Now, the special forces units who actually use their handguns and know what they are doing are being allowed to choose their own weapons. Guess what? it's back to .45 for most of them.

Mouse gun bullets don't expand. As Desert Rat observes, most stops are caused by bleedouts. Guess which bleeds faster, a 1/4" cavity or a 3/4" inch one?

Personally, the only caliber I'd be happy with below .40/10mm is .357Mag.
And those airweight .357's? Yes, they're a bitch to fire, but as long as you don't want it as a fun/range gun, you won't notice the recoil when the adrenalin is flowing for real.

The point of all this is that you must pick a caliber with sufficient power to penetrate deeply to vital organs and make them bleed. Then you need to pick a bullet/load in said caliber that will perform, with the same goal in mind. There are 9mm +p's that outperform some 40's and 45's. There are many 40's and 45's that will outperform 38's and 9's. 45's out of 3.5 inch barrels suck compared to a +p+ 9mm out of a 4 inch barrel. On and on. Too many variables to make generalizations. Thats all I was trying to say.

I think we all agree on one thing: Given the best loads (with respect to penetration/expansion) in each caliber, bigger and faster is usually better.

[Glock22Fan]

RKSimple.

Yes, I think we are on the same page. I cannot, and would not wish to, quibble with your last two paragraphs and I'm sorry that we seem to have misunderstood each other's position earlier.

No, 9mm/.38's are definitely NOT mouse guns. I said in my first post in this thread that I wouldn't recommend anything less than these calibers. People who choose 9/38 are fine with me, if that's what they are happy with, although some people think that the .380 is an acceptable size. However, as I said, my personal preference is for a minimum of .40.

Someone back from the sandbox was questioned in one of the gun mags a while back and asked what was the minimum caliber for a one-hit stop. His reply? "A hand grenade down his underwear."

[saki302]

Don't forget, the common European Police caliber for more than 50 years was the good old .32ACP FMJ

Smallish rounds such as .380 are also much more effective out of longer barreled guns (PPK/ PP/ P230) than smaller guns (AMT, P3AT), but the larger pistols kind of defeat the purpose- may as well move up to 9mm with modern materials.

I like the scandium ,357 snubs myself- yes, they do kick hard, but I can rapid fire mine if I had to. I'll have to get video sometime
The best option for most is 4 rounds of .38+P, and .357 158gr for the last- it will penetrate, and recoil on the last shot is pretty irrelevant!

-Dave

[Gator Monroe]

You weren't comparing a 22 to an expanded 45. You were talking about 38's and 9's and comparing them to 45's.

I've personally witnessed the effects of shootings with pistol calibers and shotguns (Highland Hospital in Oakland, so I got to be a part of many). You can read all of the "tales" that you want from magazines and one shot stop theory. Seeing guys dieing from 22's and 25's and other guys walking in with chest wounds from a 45 will change your mind. Not that the 45 is less effective, becasue it certaintly is not, just that placement has more to do with stopping someone. I feel fine with anything from my smith 442 in 38 to my 1911. I know its going to take more than 1 round from either to stop a determined attacker (disqualifying CNS hits, of course).

My point was, you can't make a blanket statement about 38's or 9's and say the 45 or 357 is always more effective. Its MUCH more complicated than that. The human body is more complex than you'd believe.

Ditto !

[J&B]

I cannot see the need to go below a 9/.38 unless you go around town in a Speedo.

HaHaHA!! Thats great I needed a laugh today thanks!!

[coq]

I'm another for the PM9. Full size sights on a pocket size 9mm. Accurate, dependable, thin and lightweight.

[Legasat]

Ruger LCR?? Pretty small, still big enough to do some damage.

[psango]

I have found these two to be very practical for CCW:
Kahr PM 9 with 147g sub sonic hollow point
Seecamp 32 ACP with +P 75 gr. Hardcast F.N

[eccvets]

better to have a .22lr in your hand rather then air.

as for those saying nothing less then a 9mm, why dont we meet up and you let me shoot you with my .22lr? if your too scared, your all talk!

[wamphyri13]

You do realize you have resurrected a thread from over 2 years ago?
Ryan

[Squidward]

Proof that the 'caliber wars' will never die..

[rt66paul]

Police forces all over the world use .32 and .380 as primary weapons. There should be others available, but the main purpose is to stop the perp, not kill him. Most police will tell you that they have never had to draw their weapon, much less, use it.

I firmly believe that they do need access to higher power weapons, but nothing other than what the public can have. Allowing LE to have special powers not given to civilians is a slippery slope. It is as bad as taking our guns from us.

In the case of SWAT teams and the like, I can see the need for specialty tools and weapons, but they should also be available to the public.

LEOs using so-called "non-lethal" devices for pain and torture should have these devices turned back on them. If they are harmless, why would a member of the public, who used a similar(we can't get the same high power) device on a LEO, would be charged with "attempted murder".

What makes it different? (don't tase me, bro!) was a perfect example as was the BART incident. Not only was he wrong in making the "mistake" between a handgun and a taser, but he would have been misusing his authority by tasing a perp that was already prone with more than one officer there.

These devices are serious in nature, they are NOT harmless as LE would have us think.