AR pistol & second forward pistol grip a no no right?

[mdouglas1980]

It was my thought that a second forward pistol grip on an AR pistol makes it a SBR correct? Or does that fall under AOW? I remember something about a grip facing out to the left or the right not making it a SBR or AOW?

I saw an AR pistol in a shop not that long ago that had a vertical forward pistol grip on one...

Thanks,

Mike

[Coyote Brown]

SBR would have a stock. So it must be an AOW.

A Franklin Armory model?

[mdouglas1980]

I didn't look too closely at it.

[mdouglas1980]

Oh yeah a stock...lol duh on my part.

[mdouglas1980]

How hard is it to get an AOW in CA? Just federal stamp paperwork right?

[ke6guj]

How hard is it to get an AOW in CA? Just federal stamp paperwork right?

yes, just need the tax stamp (the firearm still needs to comply with CA or fall under an exemptions).

[mdouglas1980]

yes, just need the tax stamp (the firearm still needs to comply with CA or fall under an exemptions).

Yeah that's what I figured.

I think it would be cool to have a Saiga 12 AOW; I saw a thread on here quite awhile ago about someone getting one :-)

[5thgen4runner]

yes, just need the tax stamp (the firearm still needs to comply with CA or fall under an exemptions).

Do you need a trust? can I go to the store fill out paperwork,pay,and 1-4 months later have aow

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[TooPoorForMore]

According to the letter issued by ATF to Franklin armory about that particular ar pistol (xo-26 i believe) is that if the pistol exceeds 26 in overall length, it does not quality as an aow. It's been discussed. Search for Franklin armory xo-26 and you'll find discussions on the matter.

[ke6guj]

Do you need a trust?

you don't NEED a trust, but it is the easiest way for most people to get approved. Otherwise, currently, you would to get to get a CLEO sign-off (your chief of police, the sheriff, DA, judge, etc) to get an approval.

can I go to the store fill out paperwork,pay,and 1-4 months later have aow

if you can find a NFA dealer that is close enough for you to drive to 2-3 times to do all the paperwork and pick up, yes. Otherwise, just do it yourself on a Form 1 on your own pistol.

[nick]

From the Franklin Armory letter here: http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf, it appears that to be a non-NFA AOW, the AOW firearm needs to be at least 26" OAL and to "not be concealed upon a person". If it's shorter than that, then it's an NFA AOW and needs the tax stamp.

The Franklin Armory XO-26 with the forward grip is 26.3".

So, if your AR pistol is over 26" in length, you can put a forward grip on it without needing a tax stamp. If it's shorter than that, you need the tax stamp. Am I right so far?

Now, this brings a couple of more questions to mind. Say, I have a homebuilt AK or AR pistol. It's under 26" in length. So, to put a forward pistol grip on it, I'll need the NFA tax stamp, right? Would that require me to put a serial number on it? Hey, it's an honest question, since I've never had an NFA firearm. How did this work with the firearms that fell under NFA, but weren't serialized?

The next question is, an M1919A4 is a non-NFA AOW (no shoulder stock, so it's not a rifle, and it does have a pistol grip). It doesn't require a maglock, since it's not a centerfire rifle or a shotgun. Now, here's the question. An AK or AR pistol still requires a maglock, since it's a handgun with the magazine in front of the pistol grip, so without the maglock it would be an AW. However, when you put a forward pistol grip on it, it's no longer a pistol, right? It's an AOW now. Does it still require an maglock, and if so, why? Provided the forward pistol grip isn't removed, of course.

[ke6guj]

So, if your AR pistol is over 26" in length, you can put a forward grip on it without needing a tax stamp. If it's shorter than that, you need the tax stamp. Am I right so far?

based on that letter, you should be correct.

Now, this brings a couple of more questions to mind. Say, I have a homebuilt AK or AR pistol. It's under 26" in length. So, to put a forward pistol grip on it, I'll need the NFA tax stamp, right? Would that require me to put a serial number on it? Hey, it's an honest question, since I've never had an NFA firearm. How did this work with the firearms that fell under NFA, but weren't serialized?

yes, you would need to put your name (or your trust's name if the Form 1 is submitted by the trust), city, state, and serial number.

If they weren't serialized, they'd basically be contraband.

The next question is, an M1919A4 is a non-NFA AOW (no shoulder stock, so it's not a rifle, and it does have a pistol grip). It doesn't require a maglock, since it's not a centerfire rifle or a shotgun. Now, here's the question. An AK or AR pistol still requires a maglock, since it's a handgun with the magazine in front of the pistol grip, so without the maglock it would be an AW. However, when you put a forward pistol grip on it, it's no longer a pistol, right? It's an AOW now. Does it still require an maglock, and if so, why? Provided the forward pistol grip isn't removed, of course.

you are mixing CA and federal law here. the 1919a4, in most cases, has a 16+" barrel, which takes it out of CA's pistol definition, but the AK/AR pistol, with a <16" barrel, in CA is defined to be a pistol, even if the feds say that it is an AOW. A federal AOW or SBS/SBR can still be considered a pistol in CA, so you need to make sure that you don't violate any CA laws/regs that apply to pistols, such as Roster considerations and AW laws.

[nick]

based on that letter, you should be correct.



yes, you would need to put your name (or your trust's name if the Form 1 is submitted by the trust), city, state, and serial number.

If they weren't serialized, they'd basically be contraband.

you are mixing CA and federal law here. the 1919a4, in most cases, has a 16+" barrel, which takes it out of CA's pistol definition, but the AK/AR pistol, with a <16" barrel, in CA is defined to be a pistol, even if the feds say that it is an AOW. A federal AOW or SBS/SBR can still be considered a pistol in CA, so you need to make sure that you don't violate any CA laws/regs that apply to pistols, such as Roster considerations and AW laws.

Well, alright, there's always a catch. How about this same thing with the barrel longer than 16" and OAL over 30"? Basically, an unwieldy sort-of-rifle without a shoulder stock?

[ke6guj]

it has been opined that an AR "pistol' that has a 16+" barrel and was greater than 26" would be exempt from all of CA's AW laws. however, this configuration is not recommended by "The Right People" at this time.

[nick]

Damn. Oh well, I guess I'll wait on that one then. It's a pity though, I'd love to see someone making long buffer tubes for CA, for those of us willing to brave the mighty 5.56 recoil

I guess, I won't be putting forward grips on my AR/AK pistols for now, either. Wouldn't want to spoil a perfectly good receiver with a serial number and such. Not that the federal an state governments don't know that I own a bunch of firearms anyway, I just like the principle of the thing. Now, if I come across an already serialized pistol receiver, I guess I'll be getting that tax stamp.