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Hi-cap mag conversion & handgun pickup question

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  • a1c
    CGSSA Coordinator
    • Oct 2009
    • 9098

    Hi-cap mag conversion & handgun pickup question

    OK, kinda of a unique situation here.

    Today I picked up a handgun I bought from another Calgunner last month. Release day was November 1, but I could only get down there today - it's a 5 hour drive (we had agreed to meet there for the PPT as a halfway point).

    The pistol in question is rather unusual, and comes standard with 15-round mags. They were acquired with the handgun in the 80s by the seller (then a LEO), and the original plan was that he would disassemble the mags himself, and hand me over part kits. I was obviously planning to keep them as is, and acquire 10-round, California-legal mags for the gun myself.

    PPT went smoothly overall last month, except when the mags subject came up. Seller mentioned the disassembled mags in front of the shop guy, who said he couldn't legally let us do that, and he couldn't do the transfer without a legal mag. For $20, he would convert the 15-rd mags to 10 rounds. The seller, a class act, insisted to pay for the conversions.

    No problems so far.

    Today, I go down to the shop to pick up the gun, almost a week after the gun is officially out of jail. A lady at the shop - very nice - gets the gun out, but can't find the magazines. She tells me her son - probably the guy who did the PPT - is the one who does the conversions, but she doesn't know where the mags are. Her son is at a shoot several miles away. She tells me she'll call me to let me know if she can get a hold of me in time.

    She tells me normally she wouldn't release the gun to me as I can't perform a safe handling demonstration of the gun since it doesn't have the mags (on a side note, it's got a mag disconnect feature). She however lets me sign the safe handling demonstration affidavit. She sees I live far away, so she obviously feels that it would be crappy to not release the gun to me. She tells me that worst case scenario, they'll ship the mags to me. I say it's fair.

    I buy some ammo from them as I always do out of courtesy at the shops where I do a PPT (spent like $70 on HD and turkey 12 ga ammo). As I put the ammo into the lockable container where I just put the handgun, she tells me the ammo cannot be legally in the same box as the handgun. I let it go and tell her I'll make sure to remove the ammo from the box when I get to the car (of course I didn't).

    I'm a little surprised as I thought my HSC card didn't require me to do the safe handling demonstration. Bought several handguns - new or PPT - and never been asked to perform it.

    A couple of hours later after picking up the gun, during lunch, having not heard from the shop, I call about the mags. They close at 3, and I'd really like to pick them up before going back home - it's a long drive.

    Manage to get the son on the phone, who tells me the mags are not ready. "I've got like 15 handguns to work on", he tells me. "But the handgun's 10 days waiting period ended 6 days ago", I tell him. "Sorry buddy", he tells me, but he's overwhelmed with work. "We can't release the gun to you", he adds. I hear some talking behind him. "Oh, it's been released", he mumbles. He tells me he'll try to get back to me before 3. 2 pm arrives, then 3 pm. No call. So I guess they'll have to ship the mags, and they better not charge me for shipping.

    OK, so I have several questions:

    1. Is it true (and if yes, where is the PC section or DOJ/ATF policy on this) that the dealer needs a magazine with the handgun in order to do the PPT paperwork legally?

    2. Do I have to perform a safety handling demonstration in order to pick up a handgun even if I already have a HSC?
    Last edited by a1c; 11-06-2011, 9:37 PM.
    WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat.
  • #2
    Cyc Wid It
    Veteran Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 4485

    You're supposed to do the safety demonstration every time. For the safety demonstration, there needs to be a functional magazine.
    WTS all BNIB: Colt S70 Repro, HK45c, Gen4 G19

    Comment

    • #3
      ruchik
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 1189

      If I am not mistaken, he is correct in that you cannot acquire the normal capacity magazines from the seller, even if he was LEO. You can acquire the mags as dissassembled kits, but cannot put them together into assembled mags unless you personally owned them prior to 2000. Doesn't matter if they were owned legally by someone else beforehand, they can't be sold to you assembled. Now if you had that exact kind of magazine before 2000, you can use the kits to repair or reassemble your existing normal capacity magazines.

      The HSC card is really only a permit to allow you to buy handguns. It doesn't exempt you from anything, only allows you legally purchase handguns. A safety demonstration is mandated by California to be performed whenever a handgun is being transferred to a new owner. I have always had to do one whenever I bought or PPT'd a handgun.

      Comment

      • #4
        CK_32
        I need a LIFE!!
        • Sep 2010
        • 14369

        I had the same situation with my Glock and I told the guy I couldnt take the high cap mag (He was LEO and gave me a 10 round mag with it). Problem was he only brought the high cap and forgot the 10 rounder at home. The guy at the shop asked if I had a mag to demonstrate and I said no we did not.
        The guy at the shop (Rifle Gear) pulled out a mag from another gun for me to preform the test. So I got my HSC and allowed my gun to go through. So no the gun doesnt HAVE to come with a magazine. Just a lock and a container I think. But you do need one to preform the safty test so they should have pulled another magazine out for you if they had one so you could do the test.

        I believe you have to show you know how to properly hold the slide back and insert and drop the mag in a safe manner to show you know how to operate THAT firearm safely. Not entirely sure. But They made me show them after I got my HSC.

        Whats shop was this BTW?
        For Sale: AR500 Lvl III+ ASC Armor

        What's Your Caliber??


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        • #5
          Press Check
          Veteran Member
          • Jun 2011
          • 4879

          He should have been able to disassemble the magazines and transfer them to you.

          Comment

          • #6
            Oceanbob
            I need a LIFE!!
            • Jun 2010
            • 12719

            This shop is full of FUD and I doubt you will get your disassembled, legally owned magazines without some Court Action. (perhaps get GENE to write them a letter)
            May the Bridges I burn light the way.

            Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain.

            Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728).

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            • #7
              aermotor
              CGN/CGSSA Contributor
              • Apr 2009
              • 2566

              What shop did you go to so I can avoid them at all cost. Sounds like a load of horse crap to me. Should have simply bought a 10 round and keep the high caps out of the store. Shop staff are uninformed and of the lower brain capacity.

              Comment

              • #8
                a1c
                CGSSA Coordinator
                • Oct 2009
                • 9098

                I'll name the shop (and the gun model) once I get my mags and once I get the final answer on the legality of a mag-less transfer.

                To be fair, this is a rather rare gun, and finding mags for it (let alone 10-rounders) is very difficult. But it was their job to convert the mags. They had 10 days to make it happen.

                I'm particularly mad that the gun who was supposed to convert the mags did not do the conversion 6 days after the jail time of the gun was over. Never did get a phone call from them to let me know there might be a delay. Had they called me to let me know, I would have been understanding and changed my plans accordingly.

                I don't care if they got backed up. The guy found the time to go to a shoot this morning even though he was overwhelmed with work. So clearly, customers are not high on his list. His mom and the other lady I dealt with for the PPT were very nice and competent people (except for the FUD I got from the lady today about separating guns from ammo in the locked container). He obviously is the weakest link. I'd better get my converted mags very soon. Unless I get some form of apology, I'll leave a full review of my experience on Yelp and Google. And yes, I'll name the shop here.

                At least I got my handgun back home...
                WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat.

                Comment

                • #9
                  billybob_jcv
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2011
                  • 1507

                  I think I would have bought a 10-round mag, and given it to the seller before you went into the LGS, and told the owner to use that mag, and only that mag for the PPT. The mag rebuild-kits are a separate transaction that have nothing to do with the PPT and do not require an FFL to be involved.

                  I also think people do too much of the transaction inside the LGS. I've been in an LGS when the first time the buyer actually sees the gun is in front of the FFL. The only thing I want the FFL to be involved in is the paperwork. The rest of the deal is none of his business - and I don't want to give the FFL any chances to put up roadblocks to the deal. Just check the boxes on the form, take the money for the fees and give me the gun after 10 days!
                  Last edited by billybob_jcv; 11-06-2011, 11:03 PM.
                  He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.
                  -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Press Check
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 4879

                    Originally posted by a1c
                    To be fair, this is a rather rare gun, and finding mags for it (let alone 10-rounders) is very difficult. But it was their job to convert the mags. They had 10 days to make it happen.
                    Removing the magazine is step one of twelve in the safety demonstration with a semi-auto pistol, and although I know your pistol was rare, for future reference, according to PC 12071, the safety demonstration can be completed with the pistol you are receiving, or another pistol of the same make and model.

                    Sorry, but their job was to disassemble the magazines, not butcher them, and if they needed a magazine for the safety demonstration, they could have used one of the original magazines prior to disassembly.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      a1c
                      CGSSA Coordinator
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 9098

                      Originally posted by SOCOM1
                      Removing the magazine is step one of twelve in the safety demonstration with a semi-auto pistol, and although I know your pistol was rare, for future reference, according to PC 12071, the safety demonstration can be completed with the pistol you are receiving, or another pistol of the same make and model.

                      Sorry, but their job was to disassemble the magazines, not butcher them, and if they needed a magazine for the safety demonstration, they could have used one of the original magazines prior to disassembly.
                      Yeah, had it been easy to get a 10-rounder for that gun, I would have gotten it myself. I really was hoping they would have done their job on time - I guess I usually expect people to be doing their jobs. Silly me.

                      Lesson learned. Will avoid that shop in the future, and if I ever buy another unusual gun using mags that are hard to find in CA-legal format, I will make sure I bring one in myself for pickup. At least it didn't cost me anything extra (unless they try charging me for shipping).
                      WTB: French & Finnish firearms. WTS: raw honey, tumbled .45 ACP brass, stupid cat.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Press Check
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 4879

                        Originally posted by a1c
                        Yeah, had it been easy to get a 10-rounder for that gun, I would have gotten it myself. I really was hoping they would have done their job on time - I guess I usually expect people to be doing their jobs. Silly me.

                        Lesson learned. Will avoid that shop in the future, and if I ever buy another unusual gun using mags that are hard to find in CA-legal format, I will make sure I bring one in myself for pickup. At least it didn't cost me anything extra (unless they try charging me for shipping).
                        Nothing within the PC that stipulates use of a 10rd magazine for the demonstration.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          JTROKS
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 13093

                          That just sounds too Ef Up'd to me. Let us know the name of the shop once you get them please.
                          The wise man said just find your place
                          In the eye of the storm
                          Seek the roses along the way
                          Just beware of the thorns...
                          K. Meine

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                          • #14
                            Anchors
                            Calguns Addict
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 5940

                            1. PC 12071 (8)(d) details all the steps required to perform the safe handling demonstration. A magazine is a crucial (required) component for the demonstration. However, another firearm of the same make/model may be used in the transferred firearm's place (then again, in that case you could just use the magazine from the other gun lol).

                            2. The same law that details the demonstration requires the HSC in the first place. Unless you are exempt from the HSC, you are not exempt from the safe handling demonstration (unless you are physically disabled and unable to perform it). You could make yourself exempt from HSC/SHD by successfully completing a P.O.S.T. PC 832 class or getting an LTC (easier said than done).
                            Here is a list of exemptions to HSC:


                            Originally posted by SOCOM1
                            Nothing within the PC that stipulates use of a 10rd magazine for the demonstration.
                            True.
                            It also wouldn't be illegal for the former LEO to let you borrow a +10 round magazine for the duration of the demonstration in his immediate vicinity, according to the CGF Wiki.
                            Last edited by Anchors; 11-07-2011, 12:06 AM.

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