Building my first 1911. EDIT: Buying an RIA 1911 instead and going from there

[RMP91]

I am interested in slowly building my first gun, which will be a 1911 over the course of the next year. I'm only 20 now, but by the time I have the parts assembled I will be of legal age.

Now, I know there are 1911s out there that have "Property of US Government" or "M1911 US ARMY" made in the early 1940s, but for the stuff I want to do to it, it would tarnish it's prestige and legacy. Purists would call it sacrilege. If I want the "Property" and "US Army" marks on my 1911, will I have to find and hack up a piece of American history to do so? Is there another way of getting those marks? Would I be able to have them custom engraved onto the slide and frame?

I plan to install:

1. Bobtailed mainspring housing (Might or might not)

2. Either Novak or Trijicon night-sights

3. Parkerized finish for all-weather durability

4. Colt Commander or Skeletonized Hammer

5. 3 hole short trigger

6. Lanyard ring

7. Beveled mag well

8. (If I have to): Custom engravings of "US PROPERTY" "MODEL OF 1911 US ARMY" on the slide and frame respectively

9. A rail adapter of some kind. Something that I can put on and take off without having to drill holes into the gun whenever I want/need to mount a light. I just don't like the look of the 1911 railed frames, otherwise I would have gone for that.


Your thoughts, suggestions, opinions, and, if you like, criticism are welcome!

[redcliff]

How will you get a 1911 frame to use as the basis of your build? It's very difficult to just get a frame in California with the roster, handgun safety demonstration requirement and the fact that you're not 21.

To get the markings you want your best bet is to just find a real US GI mixmaster pistol as a start, but the heat treating isn't that great on them and not something I'd use for a custom build although many will disagree. Additionally although the frame will have US PROPERTY and Model of 1911 (or Model of 1911a1) markings the slide will not. Caspian can probably buld you a frame and slide with the markings you want, but it's problematic to get both pieces and it wouldn't actualy be "correct" as to military markings.

Some of the parts you listed conflict with each other unfortunately. Bobtail mainspring housings (which require frame alteration) exclude the use of either a magwell or a lanyard loop. I've not seen a short 3 hole trigger (if you find one let me know), although there are some some skeletonized ones available.

Parkerizing, while a decent finish, will show wear and can rust if not properly maintained, there are better finishes available like hard chrome or nitrided surface treatments, or coatings like Cerakote or Armor Kote or Black T.

Surefire makes a removable light adapter, but they're not cheap.

You don't have a beavertail grip safety specced, but they're nice to have for comfort and a higher grip (these generally require a commander hammer or at least a bobbed spur). Also a lowerrred and flared ejection port is helpful to ensure proper ejection and prevent brass damage if you reload.

Personally, for your first pistol and first 1911, I'd just get a RIA tactical and worry about installing night sights later. Or if your budget allowed get a Springfield mil spec or loaded depending upon features desired. At least you would have the benefit of a warranty this way and be sure to end up with a pistol that runs properly.

[m1match]

I would second the advice redcliff gave you. This is your 1st gun and starting by trying to build a 1911 parts gun is NOT RECOMMENDED. First, as your first gun, you won't have a good idea of what you like or don't like because you haven't shot many different 1911s. Second, the 1911 is a gun that requires a higher level of user knowledge to keep it running well. It is a gun where replacing parts usually requires hand fitting of those parts. Even "drop in" parts will require fitting. The 1911 is known as the King of Feedway Stoppages for a reason. When they run well, they run VERY WELL, but when they have issues, fixing them isn't always a simple thing.

As redcliff said, because of the silly CA safe handgun roster, you will have a very difficult time buying a frame/slide. You are better off buying a gun, shooting it, and deciding what to change later. He suggested an RIA or a Springfield and I would second that advice.

FWIW, I have owned over 20 1911s in my lifetime, including full custom builds from top 1911 smiths that I worked with the smith to spec out everything, and one 1911 custom build where I did most of the parts fitting and hand work including installing a beavertail grip safety. With each gun I learned about what works for me and how fitting 1911 parts takes a lot more skill than other guns like a Glock. When you are using files and emerycloth to remove metal, you have to be patient and go slow because you can always take more metal off, but you can't easily put metal back that you've removed.

[9mmepiphany]

I agree with both of the above posters. The 1911 isn't the pistol you want to start with if putting a gun together. It is always tempting because the 1911 is so easy to take apart to it's bare bones...but remember that those parts were all fitted before you took them apart.

Having recently had a chance to be part of wringing out a RIA 1911...at a Gunsite class...I think that would be a wise starting place for a project gun. You won't save any money building your own 1911

[Matt P]

My opinion is that as you continue your pursuit of 1911 goodness, you may very well discover your own answers in that quest.
Certainly a forum is a wonderful place to find answers.
To help you in your continued quest, I direct you to this site,
TurnBull, 1911 Restore GREATNESS-PressMe

Turnbull Article that was published ina magazine
If you have read this article, you can see just a small sampling of what they are capable of.

You may have to call and see if you could take a firearm not original with the marks you would like and then add them.
Right now, property marked frames are not cheap.
Heck, even Larry Vickers had a Pre War National Match gone through and changed. I saw the images on the 1911 forum. Another excellent source for info.
(I tried to find the images for you....I need more time..More time I tell you)

[M. D. Van Norman]

[RMP91]

Hmm..... Maybe I should try rethinking what I want to do a little...

I did a little more research and found that the "United States Property" and "M1911A1 US Army" markings are on the frames of government-issued 1911s. I know I can find 1940s era military 1911s for $1-3k depending on condition, but I am morally obliged to leave them as they are because they are historic icons of wars past, and drilling holes into them/cutting down the frame for Bobtailing would be disgracing their legacy. But... If I were to somehow find a Remington Rand or Ithaca frame all by itself that bears the Government/Army markings... Sounds like a tall task, but I'm pretty sure I can find one if I wait/look long enough... I will keep my eyes on Gunbroker in the months to come.

And I do understand that, for a first gun, and especially for someone as young as me (20 1/2 years) building one from scratch is a pain in the *** to do, especially in California. But I want this gun to be special, something I put together with my own two hands, something that I can show friends and family in the future that is a product of my determination and enthusiasm.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely taking your comments and advice into account when I think about this. I'm just trying to make this work as best as my time and money will allow. I am reading up the mechanics of 1911s, how to field strip them etc. so I do not think the technical stuff will be too much of an issue in the long run.

But I wonder, is there some kind of web program or website that lets you personalize a 1911 virtually? I want to do a bit of mix and matching.

[m1match]

Since you are set on building a 1911, I would strongly advise you to buy the Kuhnhausen books on the 1911. There are two volumes and you should get both of them:

http://www.amazon.com/Colt-45-automatic-shop-manual/dp/B0006EVYAU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1320627978&sr=1-1

A GI frame you might be able to buy, make sure your FFL will do the transfer, and to get through the CA safe handgun roster, you will need to use the Curio & Relic exemption, which GI 1911s will have since they are all over 50 years old.

I would still strongly advise you not to try to build a 1911 for your first gun. Even if everything goes well, it will be expensive, and if you make a mistake that can't be undone, you will be paying a professional to fix your mistake. I would figure that a GI frame and parts gun will be running you in excess of $1,500 not including your labor to build it. I would suggest you also look at the S&W M&P 45. I've shot them and they are excellent guns and can be made to have excellent triggers with one of the aftermarket trigger kits. Then I would suggest spending your money on ammo and training classes.

[zfields]

I dont think you quite understand how hard it is to get a Bare frame in CA. You need to real up on how firearms are transferred, and what is required to take possession of it.

[RMP91]

I dont think you quite understand how hard it is to get a Bare frame in CA. You need to real up on how firearms are transferred, and what is required to take possession of it.

Didn't realize it was THAT hard.

Would I perhaps be better off buying an Rock Island or a Springfield and going from there?

All I really need is the frame with the markings right? The rest of the parts will be ultra-easy to get compared to the frame.

[ElvenSoul]

Read this

http://www.acmearms.com/80percentfaq.php

These guys make the best home built kit...however...they don't like paper money
good luck

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/products.php

http://www.diyguns.com/

[Mr. Meeseeks]

Didn't realize it was THAT hard.

Would I perhaps be better off buying an Rock Island or a Springfield and going from there?

All I really need is the frame with the markings right? The rest of the parts will be ultra-easy to get compared to the frame.

It's still not that easy, a 1911 isn't like assembling an AR lower or upper, sometimes/ often times, it'll take knowledgeable careful fitting (modification) of parts to get it to function properly.

I'm not telling you not to do it, just that its going to be more involved than many expect. You'll not just be investing in parts, but most likely lots of specialized tools as well.

If you feel its something you really want to learn and invest in, I say go for it, but be very careful and patient. Also don't expect immediate and perfect results.

[zfields]

Didn't realize it was THAT hard.

Would I perhaps be better off buying an Rock Island or a Springfield and going from there?

All I really need is the frame with the markings right? The rest of the parts will be ultra-easy to get compared to the frame.

I would start with those and then customize off them. Build one from frame up later.

Personally, my first gun would be my HD firearm. Spend money on the toys and fun guns after.

[PRCABR4Christ]

Didn't realize it was THAT hard.

Would I perhaps be better off buying an Rock Island or a Springfield and going from there?

All I really need is the frame with the markings right? The rest of the parts will be ultra-easy to get compared to the frame.

I would highly suggest investing in the Kuhnhausen manuals if you want to build a 1911, there's alot of work involved...I've fit barrels, bushings, sears, hammers, grip safeties, thumb safeties and triggers, but I've yet to do a full build...

I would suggest picking up a Springfield GI or Mil-Spec and building it up...install a beavertail (do your ignition parts; sear/disco/commander hammer/trigger at the same time, EGW builds great ignition sets), hard fit a barrel (I prefer Karts)and bushing, fit a bobtail MSH(if that's your preference to a lanyard)...just remember, the Kuhnhausen manuals are your friend if you'd like, feel free to IM me and I'll help you through it, or depending where you live (I'm in Lake county), I might be willing to help you out just as long as you're not too far away (I go to the bay area every few months)

FWIW, you may be able to find a mixmaster 1911a1 for fairly cheap, and since they're C&R they can be imported to CA, but my preference would lean towards a new Springfield or Colt

[m1match]

RMP91, you have received a lot of advice from guys who know 1911s. Most of that advice includes not doing a parts build on a 1911 for your first gun. That would be called a clue. I've seen a 1911 parts gun that was built by an old gunsmith who was supposed to know what he was doing and it was an absolute piece of junk. Home built Frankenguns, especially 1911s, have far more than their share of problems especially when built by someone who's never done it before. You don't understand that you can get the parts, but almost NOTHING in a 1911 is a drop in, almost all of the parts require fitting which includes filing, stoning, polishing,etc. by skilled hands. Even with a Kuhnhausen manual, you are likely to make mistakes that will ruin parts and require you buy replacement parts and do it again. I'll say it AGAIN- buy a Springfield mil spec and learn to shoot it and maintain it first. This will be my last post in this thread- I've said my piece and I'm done.