Center Mass Myth

[ALSystems]

Maybe a rudimentary question but what actually kills a person once a bullet hits them? I thought it was bleed out. I chose the 9mm (partly) because of the concept of hydrostatic shock that a supersonic round imparts on a body once it hits. Is that merely a myth? If it is true then how does it relate to the CM shot?

I believe that hydrostatic shock usually occurs if the bullet speed is 1300+ fps which is beyond just about all 9mm loads. True for 357, 41, 44 magnum, 10mm loads and rifle loads as well.

[ZombieTactics]

I believe that hydrostatic shock usually occurs if the bullet speed is 1300+ fps which is beyond just about all 9mm loads. True for 357, 41, 44 magnum, 10mm loads and rifle loads as well.

Nope. Hydrostatic shock is really a theoretical possibility which almost never happens. It's not necessarily round or speed dependent. You may be confusing this with the cavitation effects often exhibited with rifle rounds. You really need to be in 2000fps range for that to work.

Red Devil's capsule description is actually very accurate.

You can find any number of people who will claim that hydrostatic shock is a proven and repeatable effect. Most of them are in the employ of ammunition manufacturers, which should be a clue.

[osxgp]

The best person to talk to on what stops a gunfight is a coroner at the city morgue. That is where the most accurate data for stopping power and center mass damage can be found. The author is stating what sounds like opinions, but passing it off as facts. The morgue is where the folks at the ammo factories get the best info for producing a fight stopping round.

Can anyone honestly say that every gunfight is the same? There have been people killed with a single .22LR and people who lived with .44 mag wounds. So to assume that center mass trauma is a myth, is a myth unto itself.

[smle-man]

90% of shooters are fortunate to hit the ground when they shoot let alone be able to intentionally hit incapacitating parts of the body on an opponent. For those 90% of shooters center of mass aiming is critical. For the other 10% center of mass aiming is equally important because bad guys don't follow the script that we've written for them and infuratingly insist of doing things like moving and even firing first and not standing still as they should. Only hits count and the first hit is the most important.

[steelrain82]

that's why they teach the failure drill

but yes, the human body is tough, can take a minute or more to bleed out which is plenty of time to put plenty of hurt on you

nothing new here

this 2 to the chest and 1 to the grape works best.

[arsilva32]

i used to take to my shooting spot big hams and pork roast,and other thick meats just to see what the different calibers would do at diff ranges . i found alot of the time 9 mil fmj would not always pass through. however, my 44 mag with wad cutters would almost obliterate the meat. after all that i found in my testing, its for sure that large calibers do way more damage,no doubt about it in my mind.i know its not an exact scientific test but there is some relevance.

[ZombieTactics]

The best person to talk to on what stops a gunfight is a coroner at the city morgue. ...

... or medical examiner, forensic pathologist, ER/trauma surgeon, etc.

The problem of course is that these aren't typically viewed as "been-there-done-that-seen-the-elephant-super-awesome-gun-guys". So the simple fact that they are the best source of information regarding actual wounds gets lost amid "analysis" from people with heroic profiles who - unfortunately - often have no clue what they are talking about.

[Shenaniguns]

Or you can read up on posts from Doctor Gary Roberts aka DocGKR who is one of the few experts on this topic.

http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[Nippy]

wtf Putting some sense into this thread!? I call Shenaniguns!

[HK35]

Or you can read up on posts from Doctor Gary Roberts aka DocGKR who is one of the few experts on this topic.

http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

Thanks for posting. Lots of good info there but I can't tell from the data which caliber is best. The take home message is you need to puncture a major artery (with any size bullet) to cause incapacitation regardless of bullet size. So shot placement is key.

But regardless, one has to know that even if you manage to hit a major blood vessel/s, it'll take a few seconds for the BG to bleed out which may provide just enough time to put the hurt on you.

[Shenaniguns]

Thanks for posting. Lots of good info there but I can't tell from the data which caliber is best. The take home message is you need to puncture a major artery (with any size bullet) to cause incapacitation regardless of bullet size. So shot placement is key.

But regardless, one has to know that even if you manage to hit a major blood vessel/s, it'll take a few seconds for the BG to bleed out which may provide just enough time to put the hurt on you.

Out of the typical 9/.40/.45 the difference is minimal... but the larger calibers barriers work a little better on barriers.

[meaty-btz]

Well puncture a major artery, achieve a direct hit on the CN, or cause such massive damage as to render everything else irrelevant. Example, a 9mm will puncture and possibly lead to a collapsed lung. Lung tissue remains largely functional. A 12 gauge shotgun slug will shatter the sternum and ribs sending fragments in all direction and will cause direct destructive tissue damage to the lung. Chances of an incapacitating lung hit are much higher.

Point being a pistol is a small body, hydroshock is a myth. Stopping a person require
1. They give up after a non-critical hit
or
2. You cause massive physical trauma that ends the threat by ending the life or such that continuance of attack is no longer physically possible.

My assumption with all pistol and even most rifle rounds would be multiple hits to stop the threat.

When it gets right down to it the old hunter adage is inverted for 2 legged targets. Meat Damage, the more the better. That is one of the issues with deer hunting and slugs.. you destory a goodly bit of the tasty meat.

It is also why my shotgun is first in line for HD, my pistols are backup weapons. 1 1/4 oz of lead at 1600 FPS is a show stopper

[1911su16b870]

The motivation of the people involved in the fight is a big variable.

Motivated attackers can only be put down with CNS or structural injuries.

[15thaf5thbw]

I guess it was inevitable that this thread would degenerate into "CALIBER WARS". And it cracks me up when people reply with "If you hit a major artery ... then caliber is moot!" etc. because that is stating the obvious. Sure, if you HAPPEN to hit the heart dead-center then the perp is probably going to drop ... one-shot-drop. But the point of the article I think is that it is not as probable as many folks might think that you WILL hit that one-shot-drop "catalyst" area and achieve the results you are probably thinking you will, given common views that seem to be prevalent in our "shooting community" these days. The article is a word of caution ... to expect the worst and be prepared for it ... to not be caught "unaware" because of a pre-conceived, false assumption. The notion of shooting, assessing damage, if need be shooting again, and following up with situational review and assessment, reloading, etc. is good common-sense advice, and has great value despite all of the other specificities of variance that perp-disposition, gun and caliber choice, etc. might introduce. Just like Ortiz discovered in the ring with Mayweather ... Protect yourself at all times!