Differences between military and civilian ammo?

[Mr.1904]

So i understand cops, people for home defense and whoever else all use +p either JHP or just plain non-jacketed hollows. But what's the main difference between the ammo people like the feds would shoot and people like use shoot? charge? grain? powder? bullet?

Or is it all basically the same?

Like i see stuff labeled "Nato" all over the place. but is that the stuff NATO uses for target practice or to actually rock and roll?

Just was curious. Not sure if this is the right thread to post. Mods please move if not.

[CSACANNONEER]

Military stuff is FMJ.

LEAs and civilain SD rounds vary so much from one maker to the next that there is no easy answer for this. The bottom line is just about any ammo will work fine for SD. People, including LEAs feel better about paying more for specially marked ammo. Yes, some of it is better than others but, most LEAs actually get their ammo from the lowest bidder.

[JeremyS]

Military has to use full metal jacket. Hollow points or other "dum dum" rounds were banned a long, long time ago (I think late 1800's actually). NATO and other stuff like that will always be FMJ. Typically quality standards of military ammo is high, and primers and bullets are often sealed for long shelf life and/or protection from the elements (laquer around the bullet/case junction or sometimes an asphalt glue compound between bullet and case that you can't usually see, and laquer around the primer). People talk smack about "crappy mil surp ammo" but it's not crappy... just because it's inexpensive and corrosive doesn't mean it's bad. Usually tolerances are tight, accuracy is good, power is good, primers are good, consistency is good, brass is thick and properly tempered, etc etc. A lot of the current ammunition used by the military and other armed forces groups like NATO and whatnot can be purchased by civilians from the same well-known manufacturers that make it for the military. Some things are military-only, like explosive rounds, depleted uranium core... you get the idea.

Stuff labeled "NATO" or with a NATO part number just means its in their inventory system and that they probably use it and they have certainly vetted and tested it, it meets their specs/requirements, etc. It could be practice ammo, it could be duty ammo. It just means it's used by them, which is probably a solid indication of high quality as the testing is pretty thorough.

Feds (e.g. FBI), police, etc, use ammo that is legal for civilians to purchase. All use hollow points that I know of. Not all use +P. Federal HST has become very popular with law enforcement and the FBI. Speed Gold Dot is popular, whatever the newest version of Winchester Ranger is, and plenty of places still use Federal Hydra-Shock.

Some ammunition manufacturers choose to create products for "law enforcement only" and will not sell it to individuals or to companies that sell to individuals. Federal HST is a good example of this. It is not a law or something specific about the ammo that makes it "law enforcement only," it's just a choice by the manufacturer. Still, it's available if you want it, as some agencies "order too much" and then sell it to a wholesaler, who can sell it to whoever they want. For instance, www.ammunitiontogo.com almost always has HST in stock and is where I purchased mine.

[ham]

my Chilean mauser shoots 7.62 NATO. I believe with that it means the cartridge is constructed differently (thicker brass, Less powder) than a standard .308 hunting round.

[RRichie09]

My understanding is that we can get whatever the LEO's use.

The only big difference I know is the .223 vs 5.56 and the 5.56 is also available to the consumer.

As far as I know the military and LEO's don't have magic bullets were not allowed to have expect for tracers or incendiary rounds but I don't think that's what you are asking for.

[blakdawg]

The ammo may be loaded to different pressures.

For example, 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are nominally the same size but the 5.56 ammo is loaded hotter and should not be used in a firearm intended for only .223 Remington.

9mm NATO FMJ ammo is higher pressure than standard pressure 9mm FMJ loaded to the commercial standard. It's closer to a commercial "+P" but isn't marked as such.

There are tons of people who can give you a better explanation - but those are two rounds that spring to mind for me that are loaded differently for military and "civilian' standards. My understanding is that it's not necessarily a case of believing that the military standard is more lethal - for example, I believe the 9mm NATO is loaded hotter to make sure it'll function in submachine guns, not just pistols, where there may be more mass to move with the recoil energy.

[Mr.1904]

Thank you gentlemen. You've all been helpful.

[elSquid]

Military has to use full metal jacket. Hollow points or other "dum dum" rounds were banned a long, long time ago (I think late 1800's actually). NATO and other stuff like that will always be FMJ.

Nah, OTM ("open tip match") rounds are legal:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/02/marine_SOST_ammo_021510w/

-- Michael

[JeremyS]

As far as I know the military and LEO's don't have magic bullets were not allowed to have except for tracers or incendiary rounds but I don't think that's what you are asking for.

Tracers and incendiary are legal. Maybe not in California, but I play with them in Washington all the time. They're perfectly legal to purchase online, at stores, etc.



NATO uses the metric system, so any rounds that were created here or in the UK or other "standard/Imperial" system country has a separate designation for NATO. You get 5.56x45 mm instead of .223 cal, 7.62x51 mm instead of .308... There are now some other differences that you can expect in brass thickness, powder load, even overall loaded length, but these all developed out of military requirements. Originally, the different designations were just Metric/Standard. If NATO used .45, it would probably be called 11.45x23 (or however they feel like rounding 11.455x22.8 haha)

[RRichie09]

Tracers and incendiary are legal. Maybe not in California, but I play with them in Washington all the time. They're perfectly legal to purchase online, at stores, etc.

Yeah I know. They tease me with them everytime I order ammo online. haha I just figured since its CGN most people are in CA most of the time.

[JeremyS]

Nah, OTM ("open tip match") rounds are legal:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/02/marine_SOST_ammo_021510w/

-- Michael

Oh wow. Cool stuff!

The whole ban on hollow point is somewhat silly anyway. Causes "excessive suffering" or "unnecessary pain" or whatever the reason for banning it was. But then stuff like wood cores or hollow cavities in the nose of the bullet are totally fine because they're still FMJ, even though a light nose is intended to make a bullet tumble or deform horribly and cause as much damage as possible. The weird thing, like the .303 British mil surp I have, which has a wood core in the nose, is that they sterilized the wood before putting it in the bullet! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot37.htm

If I'm going to die from a bullet wound, I'd rather die instantly from a hollow point than die slow from a "humane" round.

[DDRH]

Oh wow. Cool stuff!

The whole ban on hollow point is somewhat silly anyway. Causes "excessive suffering" or "unnecessary pain" or whatever the reason for banning it was. But then stuff like wood cores or hollow cavities in the nose of the bullet are totally fine because they're still FMJ, even though a light nose is intended to make a bullet tumble or deform horribly and cause as much damage as possible. The weird thing, like the .303 British mil surp I have, which has a wood core in the nose, is that they sterilized the wood before putting it in the bullet! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot37.htm

If I'm going to die from a bullet wound, I'd rather die instantly from a hollow point than die slow from a "humane" round.

Open tip match (rifle) rounds DO NOT expand like HP rounds, used because of better aerodynamics (and maybe tumbling affect?)

that's why it's ok to use, but military does not use HP (9mm) as it expands. i think there was a debate about this, can't find the article...this is awhile back...

[mif_slim]

According to my friends dads ex-wifes brothers best friends uncle, he said back in Nam when he was a navy seal team 5.5 their 5.56 ammo was so powerful that even when missed the sonic boom it creates still decapitate a human arm.

That my friend is millitart ammo! Much most powerful then civilians!

[Uriah02]

Hague Convention is the quoted document against the use of dum-dum, HP, excessive-suffering rounds. From what I gather, LEO/Civilians not being bound by Hague Convention have more options, al la TAP and all the other wonderful things manufactures have created to stop a target/threat.

[Uriah02]

According to my friends dads ex-wifes brothers best friends uncle, he said back in Nam when he was a navy seal team 5.5 their 5.56 ammo was so powerful that even when missed the sonic boom it creates still decapitate sever a human arm.

That my friend is millitart ammo! Much most powerful then civilians!

Get it right, that is from the effect of the .50BMG!