9mm JHP over 125 gr is not optimal?

[RRichie09]

Was doing some internet reading and came upon this curious statement.

"For optimum performance, it is recommended that one not use any 9 mm JHP or LHP ammunition that is heavier than 124 grains."

I read it here Internet Armory


The guy doesn't offer an explaination so is this true? WHY?

[bussda]

If the JHP is not traveling fast enough, it does not reliably expand. This is especially true for short barrel 9mm pistols.

[IllTemperedCur]

Traditionally 9mm JHPs were usually engineered to expand at around 1000fps, and 147g velocities are often lower. Modern 147g JHPs like Ranger Ts and Gold Dots are better engineered to expand at lower velocities. Take a look at a 124g vs 147g Gold Dot. The 147g bullet has a noticeably deeper, wider cavity than the lighter bullet of the same design.

Barrel length should also play a part in the equation, since shorter barrels generally equal lower velocities. I use 147g GDs in my 4.5" barrel High Power for HD use, and I'm pretty confident in it. But if I was using a more compact 9mm with a sub-4" barrel, I'd probably go with 124g, just to be sure that I had enough velocity for the bullets to expand correctly.

[RRichie09]

If the JHP is not traveling fast enough, it does not reliably expand. This is especially true for short barrel 9mm pistols.

What's considered a short barrel pistol? Less than 3 inches?

I just picked up some Remington Golden Saber 147 gr and Hornady CD 115 gr for a P226 (4.4in barrel). Will be getting Federal HST when I find it.

I'm trying out different ammo to pick one as my HD/SD ammo.


Should I stick with 115 gr and 124 gr bullets?

Traditionally 9mm JHPs were usually engineered to expand at around 1000fps, and 147g velocities are often lower. Modern 147g JHPs like Ranger Ts and Gold Dots are better engineered to expand at lower velocities. Take a look at a 124g vs 147g Gold Dot. The 147g bullet has a noticeably deeper, wider cavity than the lighter bullet of the same design.

Barrel length should also play a part in the equation, since shorter barrels generally equal lower velocities. I use 147g GDs in my 4.5" barrel High Power for HD use, and I'm pretty confident in it. But if I was using a more compact 9mm with a sub-4" barrel, I'd probably go with 124g, just to be sure that I had enough velocity for the bullets to expand correctly.

Ahh I see that makes a lot of sense. Would the Remington Golden Saber be considered a modern 147 gr round?

[elSquid]

Was doing some internet reading and came upon this curious statement.

"For optimum performance, it is recommended that one not use any 9 mm JHP or LHP ammunition that is heavier than 124 grains."

I read it here Internet Armory


The guy doesn't offer an explaination so is this true? WHY?

Nah. For a time there was a lot of press in the gun rags about how poor heavy 9mms were, but...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=702016&postcount=9

A famous gunwriter and training "guru" came to my city for a national training seminar, and during his talk, he spoke of how poorly the 147 9mm performed in actual shootings, repeating what he had been writing in the magazines. When someone in the audience mentioned that our department had over 40 shootings with it at that point, all of them satisfactory, he turned to the crowd and said "well, most of those were submachine gun shootings, and we can't base anything on them". When the same member of the audience tried to point out that we hadn't had a sub gun shooting with the 147 grain load, he ignored him and changed the subject.

YMMV, etc.

-- Michael

[RRichie09]

Alright, thanks guys!

[vincentk]

Not true, theres a crapload of information in this thread:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

and

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Essentially, if you go with 115gr 9mm's, there will likely be underpenetration. 147's these days, such as Ranger-T's and HST's expand reliably, and can sometimes expand greater than their lighter counterparts, while providing better penetration.

[BigDogatPlay]

Was doing some internet reading and came upon this curious statement.

"For optimum performance, it is recommended that one not use any 9 mm JHP or LHP ammunition that is heavier than 124 grains."

Maasad Ayoob was (still is?) leading the anti heavy bullet in 9mm school of thought. Those who tend to follow his advice will generally poo-poo the use of 147 grain ammo. The in field results, however, of several of the largest law enforcement agencies in the country, which have been shooting modern design 147 grain standard pressure JHP, somewhat flies in the face of internet opinion, Mr. Ayoob included.

FWIW, 147 grain Federal HST performs very well in water bottle testing out of my S&W 59. I'm very confident it will do what is needed if it has to.

YMMV, of course.

[JeremyS]

Read some of the documents here and check out the photos in them, and they also have some video versions. Very good stuff: http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

I actually have the HST 124g +p but it definitely seems that most LE agencies and quite a lot of people are choosing the 147 if they're using 9mm... There is a very big crowd of "use the heaviest bullet for your caliber" believers.


...they also shoot and recoil differently. I think all of the modern bullets like HST and Gold Dot work very well in any of the weights they are offered in. I'd choose whatever you and your gun prefer shooting...

147 (subsonic) is much better for shooting supressed, of course... not that we would care here in PRK anyway.

[sammy]

Are you talking about for paper or defence?

For paper my favorite hand loads are using a 147g. LSWC over 4.5g. of Power Pistol. Sooo much more accurate than any 115g. bullet i have tried. Granted the most accurate bullet I have shot is a 124g. Zero HP. This is a 1", 50 round group at 15 yards freehand. Unbelievable and fun. About the most snap I have felt in a 9mm. Sorry, I don't have the load data for that one here in front of me.

For defence I can see why a heavier 147g. might have trouble expanding in a short barreled 9mm. The HP is so small to begin with in most 9mm bullets I think they might clog easy. Doing your basic Internet search the cat's meow seems to be the 124g. Gold Dot and 115g. Ranger. Funny the Ranger won't feed on my G19. The bullet gets caught on a down position in the magazine. Seems like the OAL is too short for the Glock.

Any, VIVA 147g. LSWC.

[locosway]

I fail to see any problems with 147gr JHP 9mm rounds...

[Noobert]

Nowadays pretty much any modern 9mm JHP will be good enough

[zfields]

Because you know, water jugs are made of the same stuff as people : )

[The Cable Guy]

I prefer the 124gr Gold Dots only because I shoot tighter groups with them than the 147s.

[locosway]

Because you know, water jugs are made of the same stuff as people : )

That was showing expansion, which was directly relevant to the OP which was about weight and speed which might affect expansion.

Many departments are running 147gr rounds and they don't seem to have any issues with expansion.