Question for Colt 1911 owners

[fullspeed1]

Hey guys, Looking to see everyone's opinion on a brand new series 80 Colt with the 100 year roll mark that I shot today. I was wondering if the tolerances were typically on the looser side, As there was quite a bit play with the frame and slide. The pistol literally sounded like a spray can when you would shake it. Granted it functioned perfectly, And I am sure with the time the grit in the trigger and mag release with hopefully work itself smooth. Is this the standard for Colt? It is my first experience with another 1911 besides my Kimber Custom II and several other of my friends Kimber's.

[DArBad]

Hi Fullspeed,

i've had 3 Colts 1991s, 2 blued & 1 stainless. Also had 1 Colt Double Eagle Mk IIs. The 3 Colt 1991s were bought from different years: 2000, 2004, 2007. The DE was first bought by my brother-in-law around 1988-89 and was GIVEN to me around 2007.

The 3 1991s I had were plaqued with: loose frame/slide fit, uneven spring tunnels, MSHs sticking below the frame, hammer leanings (to the left), firing pin stops that were also leaning, loose and floppy triggers, mushy thumb safeties. The SS had deep gouges inside the mag tunnel. The first blued 1991 I had, developed serious barrel peening as early as 140-150 rnds. In short, their quality, or lack thereof is really horrendous. Price then was equaly not reflective of their supposed craftsmanship---again, if there is any.

The DE, while target accurate, had its own list of issues.

You may ask, why I didn't inspect the guns before buying???? Simple, when I wanted the Colts, there were none to be found in my area, its only by internet order (from Clute, Texas) that I was able to purchase them, I was still uneducated as to what issues to look for on Colts. In my naive mind, the Colts were THE 1911s and therefore their quality is at the top of the food chain.

Now i know better.----Just one man's experience. Don't mean to offend those who are die-hard Colt lovers, as I used to be one myself.

[doubleactiononly]

Yes, this is normal for a Colt; in fact it's done on purpose.

Colt makes their 1911's closer to the original 1911 spec than anyone else. Part of that spec is making the gun with somewhat loose tolerances. For the most part though, this has practically no effect on accuracy while greatly increasing reliability. I have a Gold Cup that rattles a fair bit but I would put its accuracy up against any production 1911 any day.

Accuracy is mainly a function of barrel/bushing fit. The fit of slide to rails just doesn't have a huge effect, although it looks way cooler. Instead a tight fit also makes the gun much harder to make reliable, hence the 500 round breakin period for Les Baer 1911s

[fullspeed1]

I figured the looser tolerances were purposeful, Considering I am a Glock owner as well, And they are pretty loose themselves. Obviously for reliability. Being a Kimber owner, The guns side by side were nearly a night and day difference. Despite all the bashing about Kimber's, My Custom II has been 100% for nearly 1600rds now, And it actually feels like a much more expensive gun the hand. I guess its all relative to what people think a 1911 should feel like, Or the tighter tolerances are just an evolution of that platform.

[jonzer77]

Colts are made to be milspec and have the loose tolerances to help with reliability. They are made to run right from the box whereas a lot of the tight fit frame 1911's have a break in period. You got lucky with yours if it didn't have any malfunctions during that period because a lot of guns that are that tight have to break in. The tight slide doesn't affect accuracy all that much to where the average shooter will be able to notice. The real accuracy of the gun comes from the barrel locking consistently back up in the exact same position in relation to the sights. The frame and slide can rattle andit wont make a difference. I have 4 colts and they all feel the same way, three series 80's and a 70 series ranging from 2007-2011. Like you said, glocks are made that way on purpose so if any debris gets in there it gets pushed right out, same with colts.

Where is redcliff for additional input lol?

[RealBarber]

the loose tolerances are normal, and all the Colts ive seen in recent years have been well made

im picking up my second O1991 this year on monday, both with 100 Years of Service rollmarks, i loved the first so much i had to get a twin, especially since ive been unable to locate a new XSE, ill try to get that before the end of the year

[jww]

I bought my first 1911 last week and finally took it out last weekend. It's a 1991 Commander and it felt very loose to me but shot very well. I put 150 rounds through with zero failures.

I had the same concern as you but after reading endless posts it seems this is the norm.

[fullspeed1]

jww, it was just a question, definitely not a concern. It was a purchase made by a friend of mine, And I was considering adding one to the collection.

[jww]

Question/Concern- same thing to me

Either way it's a great gun. I'm pretty happy with it and hope you will be the same if you decide to add it to your collection.

I will add that a co-worker picked up his 100 year XSE Blued Government today and it is a lot tighter than my SS Commander. Not sure why there is such a difference.

[jonzer77]

jww, it was just a question, definitely not a concern. It was a purchase made by a friend of mine, And I was considering adding one to the collection.

Mark,

Not sure what your budget is but Tracy Rifle and Pistol has a stainless series 70 in stock last I checked.

[ojisan]

Where is redcliff for additional input lol?

He could be waiting for another extractor / feed jam thread.


I expect he will be along soon and we can all learn something more.

Loose means nothing in a 1911.
One of the most accurate and reliable 1911s I ever shot was a standard WW2 production gun.
Bone dry and dust balls inside, it ate everything and put them all into one hole at about 20 yards.

[Paradiddle]

My Colts are also loose in the slide department. Get a trigger job and you'll be very pleased with the accuracy.

Mine all shoot very well - the two with factory triggers are much harder to group well due to the heavy trigger. The one that Hoag customized for me is a peach - it will put all of them into one ragged hole. He did a lot of work to it, but the barrel and bushing are stock.

I'd rather have a little noise when I shake it and have it run all the time, then have it be too tight and picky with ammo.

Jeff

[redcliff]

First, I'll just say that as much as I love all 1911's, I have a special fondness for Colt's. Theres something about that silly prancing pony on the slide that just appeals to me and makes me smile when I hold one. Probably because when I started shooting 1911's they were often referred to as Colt 45's since Colt was the only commercial producer of 1911's and they seem like "real" 1911's to me. Colt's of the pre-80 series variety are my favorite platforms for building into custom 1911's. I do find it interesting that we generally put a premium on Series 70's Colt Gold Cup's and Govt. Models, when we really should be looking for pre-70 series models of these since they actually had a barrel bushing fit to the pistol instead of the labor-saving collet bushing. Of course Commander's never had the collet bushing so pre-80's Commanders are like pre 70 series Gold Cups and Govt. Models in that regard.

Obviouisly, there are good Colt's and bad Colt's, just like most other production 1911's. Colt is somewhat infamous for slightly off-center machining of the frames and spring tunnel and resultant slide rub. And while many Colts don't exhibit this problem, a pretty substantial number do, which is why it's highly recommended to carefully inspect before you buy. The good part is it's primarily aesthetic and can often be corrected with a little judicial file work on the inside of the tunnnel if caught early.. the bad new is that it exists at all. Other problems like leaning hammers, poorly fit mainspring housing and sloppy firing pin stops are rarer but occasionally encounterred. While most errors can be corrected some problems are harder to fix than others.

Colt's from the 50's and 60's are generally very good, the 70's saw more problems creep in, the 80's and 90's and early 2000's had more than their fair share of problems, but slowly, with the purchase of new cnc machinery Colt's quality is on an upswing but still not quite as consistently good as it should be imho.

Now, on to accuracy. As previously noted, most but not all Colt's are looser than we're used to with modern 1911's. However, as previously mentioned by the other knowledgeable posters above it doesn't have as significant factor on accuracy as might be presumed. Whats much more important is that the slide and barrel return to the same spot each shot. Our sights are on top of the slide so the bullet will go where we put the sights if the barel repeats its lock-up in the slide consistently. Jerry Kuunhausen, the master guru gunsmith of 1911's estimated achieving mechanical accuracy in 1911's was based upon the following:

remove frame-slide play 15%
match grade barrel 10%
fit accuracy bushing 20%
headspace 10%
eliminate rear barrel sideplay 20%
consistent vertical lockup 20%
unobtainable 5%

Does loose slide to frame fit hurt accuracy..yes a little, but its only one piece of the puzzle. All the other factors combine to have a much larger impact on accuracy, and thats only mechanical accuracy we're discussing, not counting things that help the shooter be more accurate like good trigger jobs and good sights. Virtually all the 1911's I shoot have had trigger jobs performed on them by professionals. My local pistolsmith does 3 or 4 1911 trigger jobs a month. And he's been doing them for over 30 years. So I personally don't try to outdo him (I couldnt if I tried), he's done over 1,500 1911 trigger jobs in his career and can nail the desired pull weight within a couple ounces on his first try and produce a trigger like snapping icilcles.

Does loose slide to frame fit help reliability? I used to think so, but now I don't know. My Springfield Pro is the tightest, hardest to rack 1911 I've ever owned or shot and its never had a malfunction from round 1. I have reliable loose 1911's and reliable extremely tight 1911's but my reliable extremely tight 1911's cost a lot more than my reliable loose 1911's. Reliability seems to be more a function of proper assembly and fitting of the components (especially extractor fitting) and proper lubrication, proper maintenance, good magazines and good ammunition than any other factor. And to Colt's credit, they generally do a good job of fitting their components to each particular pistol's manufacturing variances resulting in a pistol that is usually reliable out of the box.

[PRCABR4Christ]

As has been said previously, Colts do rattle, they are made to much looser tolerances than a Les Baer or Wilson...not that Wilsons and Baers aren't reliable, it's just that Colt's are Mil-Spec.

The looser tolerances help greatly with reliability, although they may suffer from slightly less accuracy than a Wilson, they are "combat accurate", as a fighting pistol should be, and can be more than "combat accurate" with a proficient shooter, but most 1911 shooters will never equal the accuracy that can be obtained with a production gun

[DArBad]

Don't mean this to disparage anyone in particular, but just saying.

There was a time in the scheme of things that loose equates reliability, tightness equals accuracy at the expense of reliabilty.

This is no longer the case. With what the manufacturers had learned, with CNC/CAD-CAM machines, with todays newer manufacturing techniques, one can buy a RELATIVELY tighter gun yet reliable, one that does not rattle like a childs toy rattler, one that gives buyers a sense of high craftsmanship level.

And most buyers it seems, if sales record are an indication, wants reliablity, accuracy, and tightness. These things are achievable in an affordable production gun as proven by Kimber, Smith&Wesson, Dan Wesson, some models of Springfields, etc.