Single Action Revolvers

[Dark Mod]

Im obsessed with revolvers and my next purchase will be a single action revolver. The problem is i know very little about them, The Ruger Vaquero looks about right, but i really dont know what other modern reproductions there are out there.

2nd part of my question is what are the differences between the modern reporductions and the old ones like a colt Single action Army. Any input from cowboy action shooters and SA owners would be greatly appreciated.

Opinions on your favorite ones would be welcomed

[22popnsplat]

My first handgun was a single action revolver , I have several rugers and they can be a little confusing . There are two different versions of the Vaquero , one has a large frame like the black hawk and one has a smaller frame and is a closer imitation to the original Colts . The fixed sight vaquero can be a challange to regulate the sights on and I usually suggest a blackhawk or a bisley for the adjustable sights, there its a matter what grip frame you like . The bisley is usually favored for the heavy recoil rounds .You dont mention what the intention is with it , if its plinking ,cowboy action , or hunting . I have the rugers i enjoy for plinking and have hung onto a couple of my Freedom arms that I competed with in IHMSA with that are the most accurate revolver i have ever fired .

[RedFord150]

The newer ones have transfer bar safeties, the old ones do not. This is the reason that some SA shooters keep an empty chamber under the hammer. This prevents an impact to the hammer from causing the gun to fire.
I personally like Rugers a lot. I think they are the best value in SA revolvers. I have owned a Ruger Single Six in .22LR/.22 mag. I regret selling it a long time ago when I needed $ to pay bills.
I have also fired Ruger Blackhawks in .357 mag, .44 mag, and .45LC. I have never fired a Bisley or Vaquero.
Good luck.

[1JimMarch]

OK, this is a very broad question .

Lemme ask you a few in return:

1) Do you want a "traditional action" where you have to carry it with the hammer down on an empty chamber because it has no other safety, or do you want a modern automatic safety grafted in so you can carry it full-up?

2) Are you going to compete in SASS, and if so roughly how old are you? I ask because "seniors" can use adjustable sights like the Ruger Blackhawk, everybody else is limited to "traditional sights" like the real Colt SAA, Ruger Vaquero or New Vaquero, etc. This also affects what caliber you want.

3) Is this going to be a "woods defense gun" or even personal defense gun? I live in Tucson AZ these days and my daily carry is a New Vaquero in 357, heavily modified. (We're talking "FrankenRuger" here...)

4) Is ammo cost a consideration?

5) Do you want "big power" - as in 44Magnum or beyond?

6) Do you reload?

Think this over and we'll talk.

[Dark Mod]

OK, this is a very broad question .

Lemme ask you a few in return:

1) Do you want a "traditional action" where you have to carry it with the hammer down on an empty chamber because it has no other safety, or do you want a modern automatic safety grafted in so you can carry it full-up?

2) Are you going to compete in SASS, and if so roughly how old are you? I ask because "seniors" can use adjustable sights like the Ruger Blackhawk, everybody else is limited to "traditional sights" like the real Colt SAA, Ruger Vaquero or New Vaquero, etc. This also affects what caliber you want.

3) Is this going to be a "woods defense gun" or even personal defense gun? I live in Tucson AZ these days and my daily carry is a New Vaquero in 357, heavily modified. (We're talking "FrankenRuger" here...)

4) Is ammo cost a consideration?

5) Do you want "big power" - as in 44Magnum or beyond?

6) Do you reload?

Think this over and we'll talk.

1: I suppose a safety would be nice as long as it didnt ruin the whole cowboy fantasy thing

2: I would love to eventually get started in SASS, i think getting this gun would be an important first step. Im 28

3: Probably not a defense gun at all, although in a pinch i would expect it to have my back

4: Ammo cost is not a consideration, i reload so im not worried about cost at all. 44 mag would be cool, although i hear everyone uses 38 spl nowadays.

I would like to get acurate shooting single handed, as most of the cowboys seemed to do back in the day

[Can't buy anything here]

Have you ever shot a single action? The grip is dramatically different than on modern DA revolvers...so try before you buy. Personally, I find them a bit awkward...YMMV.

[coyotebait]

I used to shoot SASS/cowboy action with a pair of Vaquero's 45 colt. The things are reliable and tough as nails. Load light for competition but are tough enough to run full strength ammo through for "other" uses. Oh, and they still make parts for them. (unlike my Winchester model '87 that was made in 1893.)

[redcliff]

I agree with Rugers for SASS. For informal shooting and collecting I like Colt's Single Action Army. Heres one of mine since this thread needed some SA porn:

[1JimMarch]

OK, let's talk.



Rugers are divided into three frame sizes (four if you count the micro-size Bearcat). ALL Rugers from 1973 forward have a rock-solid internal safety (transfer bar type).

Large-frame: covers the SuperBlackhawk in 44Mag (all years) and starting in 1973, pretty much everything else. The Blackhawks were built on the same frame size as the Supers with a few recent exception (we'll get to that). All of the original "Vaqueros" from the 1980s ending in 2004 were large-frame. So basically they were like a Colt SAA, but scaled up. For reasons we'll get to, you don't want the "Old Vaquero". Other weird large-frame variants worth noting:

* They just came out with an EIGHT shot Blackhawk, in the new 327Mag caliber which is basically a hot-rodded 32H&RMagnum. Damned interesting gun, but no good for SASS both because of the adjustable sights and the eight-shot thing doesn't work for SASS very well.

* The "convertible model" large-frame Blackhawks are interesting - dual-cylinder in either 45ACP/45LC or 357/9mm.

Mid-frames: starting in 2004 Ruger brought back the Colt SAA-sized frame similar to the pre-1973 357 model Blackhawks. The first was the New Vaquero, which is sized almost exactly like a post-WW2 model Colt SAA. Handling is very similar. The main difference you'd notice is that on loading, you don't put it in half-cock. With the Ruger system, with the hammer fully down you open the loading gate which locks the hammer and trigger plus lets the cylinder spin (forward only, backwards too with a zero-dollar modification). The Ruger is faster and safer to reload.

Starting with the first of these new-series mid-frames (New Vaquero) Ruger radically improved the quality control. The change is in how the cylinders are made. ALL the mid-frame cylinders are bored one chamber at a time with the same bit/reamer set, leading to uniform cylinder bores and throats. The old method involved six bit/reamer sets going all at once, with resulting variances and sloppy chambers.

Starting roughly 2007, this process migrated to the large-frames. To ID a large-frame with the new process, look for the "Ruger lawyer's warning label billboard" on the barrel - if it's underneath, that particular large-frame has a new-process cylinder. On the side, it doesn't. There's an exception: in 2006 Ruger put out a "50th Anniversary Blackhawk Flattop 44Mag" (not marked "Super"). That was the first large-frame with the new-type cylinder, and it had a side-barrel warning. Note that this "barrel warning position" thing does NOT matter on mid-frames - at all.

Other interesting mid-frames:

* 50th Anniversary 357 Blackhawk: basically a New Vaquero with adjustable sights.

* Montado: a New Vaquero with a 3.75" barrel and a lower-slung SuperBlackhawk hammer grafted on!

* SASS Special New Vaqueros: sold in pairs, in 357 and (I think?) 45LC. These have the most common barrel length in SASS (4.68") and also have SuperBlackhawk-type hammers. (Err...yeah, minor point: there's a cosmetic difference between this hammer (also used on the Montado) and the real Supers...not a big deal though.)

* 44Spl "Vaquero": some pointy-haired idiot manager at Ruger dropped the "New" part for the 44Spl - doesn't matter, it IS a "New Vaquero" mid-frame type.

* 44Spl Blackhawk: similar to the 50th 357, but bored out .

Small-frames: At various times Ruger has done the Single Six in .32cal (32H&RMag). Not currently in production. Probably not what you want.

Arright. You've probably figured out that you want a NewVaq or possibly a Montado (currently out of production). If you're not getting into SASS right away, you might want a convertible large-frame that's new enough for an under-barrel warning and the new cylinder process. Let's factor in a few more things:

In a gun the size and strength of a post-war Colt and the mid-frame Rugers, the 357Mag is the most potent caliber you can run. These guns can shoot near-unlimited diets of the gnarliest stuff Buffalo Bore and Doubletap can brew up, deep into 10mm power levels. The cylinder on a NewVaq357 is beefier in all directions than a GP100 or S&W L-frame 357...by a big margin.

You gain another advantage with 357: because the barrel wall is thicker, it resists deformation at the point where it screws into the frame. You're less likely to get a restriction at the rear end of the barrel and if you do, it won't be as bad as the 44s and 45s. Fire-lapping is the smartest cure for this issue if you have it, but you likely won't need to mess with a 357.

Let's talk about period-correct techniques and ergonomics.

I had a chance over a year ago to compare my NewVaq357 with a SuperBlackhawk hammer swap to a series of real Colts, including some dated older than 1895 (first gen) plus some 2nd and 3rd gen.

I had put the Super hammer on to reduce the "thumb reach". I'm a "strong side thumber" - I do NOT do off-hand cocking nor do I believe that was a period-correct technique OR smart as a combat technique today. Strong-side thumbing means you cock with the shooting hand, so you can work well either one-handed or two. Shooting two hands from a Weaver hold, as I cock it my strong-side thumb slides off the side of the hammer right at the end of the cocking strong, where it lands on my other thumb for a classic "thumbs pointing forward" two-handed hold just like the top autoloader guys preach.

When I compared my modded Ruger to stock pre-WW2 Colts, I was shocked to find that the thumb reach was identical. The post-war Colts felt like the hammer reach was too long - same as my gun was before I swapped hammers.

We know that the machines to do pre-war Colts were left out in the rain during WW2, and post-war production started in the mid-50s on new machines. As best I can tell, driven by the trend in "fanning" in Hollywood, Colt set up the Gen2 and later with "high hammers".

Bat Masterson talked about throwing the thumb's first joint over the hammer. With a Super hammer on my gun, I can do that from a pinkie-under grip. Stock hammer, I couldn't. Upshot: I can transition seamlessly between period-correct one-handed shooting and modern two-handed. I study both.

If you either buy one of the factory lower-hammer variant NewVaqs (Montado or SASS special) or graft a Super hammer on yourself (easy job!), it won't LOOK "period correct" - but it'll BE more correct than a modern, genuine Colt!!! (And yeah, some people here are going to want to strangle me for saying it.)

It gets better. The Montado/Super style hammers were recently legalized for SASS use . For a while everybody and his brother was out looking for one but I'm told supplies are now getting out there - if you order one from Midway or Brownells it might be backordered but it'll get filled pretty quick. I bought mine back in 2005 (a month after I bought the gun!) when Super hammers were SASS-outlawed.

I'm also told Ron Powers of Power Custom is going to start making Super-type hammers of his own design, which when matched with his trigger as a set (about $160ish all told, owch!) gives you basically a top-level professional trigger job that you buy mailorder and bolt in yourself. As a bonus, with a Ron Powers hammer you have a half-cock option so you can operate it like a real Colt if you want .

One more thing: finish. Earlier NewVaqs in "blue" had a fake-case-color frame, which was pretty cheesy looking and tended to wear. New ones are a good, tasteful all-blue. Ruger will refinish the old ones on request to all-blue, and other than the fake case issue, you do get one advantage: you can be sure that the gun was made in what are probably the absolute peak years for Ruger quality control - 2004 until the "great Obama gun rush" esp. early 2008. Ruger QC was a bit rough for a bit there but has picked back up. So if you're looking for the best possible "vintage", go ahead and get a lightly used fake-case NewVaq, or get one brand new.

Questions?

[coyotebait]

Wow, I think my brain just popped.

[Dark Mod]

wow nice write up! Looks like im getting a new vaquero!

[SimpleCountryActuary]

I agree with Rugers for SASS. For informal shooting and collecting I like Colt's Single Action Army. Heres one of mine since this thread needed some SA porn:

I have a 7-12 incher 3rd generation. It's a blast to shoot. I think for Cowboy action he would want a short one.

[1JimMarch]

I didn't mention it yet, but nothing from Italy matches Ruger so far. Except in terms of looks, in a few cases.

You might also want to look at buying one "pre-tuned" from Longhunter:

http://www.longhunt.com/ruger/index.htm

Prices are a bit higher but take a look at what he does to 'em before you get 'em. He also weeds out any possible "birth defect" cases. Damn good value for the money. You might even be able to get him to swap in a Super hammer while he's at it.

On the Bisley hammer/trigger/grip setup: it's best for "big recoil" situations and probably not worth it on a NewVaq. But you should at least see how one feels in your hands...it might feel like it's "made for you". Bisley variants are SASS legal so long as you have all the Bisley parts (grip frame, hammer and trigger) - you can't graft a Bisley hammer onto an otherwise non-Bisley gun and play in SASS. (You CAN otherwise make it work - when set up on a "normal" grip frame it'll be lower than the Super hammer.)

That link above will show you the relative shape of the Super hammer (on the SASS special) and the normal high-ride type.

[bwiese]

I'd have zero problem using my Ruger 50th Anniv Blackhawk in 357 as a self-defense firearm.

[1JimMarch]

The 50th 357 is a superb gun. The only reason I have an otherwise similar NewVaq357 from 2005 is that at the time, the 50th was rare and expensive. I went NewVaq instead, and have since upgraded the sights to an almost insane level. I'm running a handmade clone of the Goshen Enterprises Hexsite, but with pre-release features under a non-disclosure agreement that Tim Sheehan at Goshen hasn't released himself yet. At some point a version of my sight will be sold by Goshen, likely for revolvers. Until then I can't post pics.

That's above and beyond the gas-powered auto-eject system that kicks the empties out as I shoot it . And the 7rd brass tubular spring-loaded magazine system coming next month I hope, that'll bring the net firepower up to about 1911 spec with more potent ammo .

Basically, I'm on a quest to build the world's most tacticool SA wheelgun ever, in history, end of discussion .