Best ways to improve accuracy

[Voo]

Instruction may be useful but it is surely not the most economical. They guy already took a basic shooting course and if they couldn't teach him basic grip and trigger control in that class then they have no business teaching anybody anything.

Let's take an analogy. I played saxophone for about 6 years straight. I took lessons all of zero times. I practiced on my own and with others multiple times a week (usually 5 days a week). I was good at what I did. Yes, I had to be taught how to hold the instrument and how to go up and down the scale but from there I took over with practice and drill and got better myself. To say that people need to fork over money constantly to make improvement or that it is economical to do so is intellectually dishonest.

This isn't quite true when it comes to shooting. You didn't address the fact that the costs for practicing an instrument is virtually nil. You can play anytime, anywhere you want for FREE. Shooting is not the same. There are range fees and the costs of ammo. You can say dry fire but even that is still insufficient for grip and front sight familiarity.

The reality is that a good instructor can show you quickly what you're doing wrong and (if they're good) can provide insight on how to correct/learn from it. It's one thing to say, "do x, y, z" but making someone understand what goes into obtaining 'x, y, z' is much trickier. If all it took was the instruction to say, "aim at the black circle and shoot" everyone would be a bullseye shooter. That's obviously not the case.

In terms of the cost, just look at the expense for just a 1000 rounds of 9mm or 1000 rounds of .45. Now multiply that over 6 months, a year, or however much you shoot and you'll see it can potentially reach several hundreds (or $1000's). Taking a 1 on 1 class with an instructor (from prices I've seen/heard) can vary from $200-400 dollars for 2-3 days of instruction. That's why I disagree on the economics of it. Someone good can help you improve immediately after observing you shoot just a few rounds of ammo. Time is also another intangible. For most of people, time is not an overly abundant luxury. If I can reach a better understanding in a much shorter of time (im talking about on the order of weeks or months) then almost certainly that's something worth considering paying for.

I do, however, agree with that you "don't" need to take classes to improve. Reading and understanding proper fundamentals goes a long ways to self improvement. There's a lot of information out there if your google-fu is good. But at the same time, I also know that even professional athletes obtain personal training. Pro-baseball, football, tennis, golf players- all have coaches and personal trainers observing and watching them. Same thing with olympic athletes. They all have trainers to help refine their mechanics. Natural talent is a wonderful thing to have, but how often do you run into true savants or those that are uber-gifted? Virtually everyone else trains with instructors.

[limitdown]

Search for videos on Youtube of how IPSC shooters stand, grip and pull the trigger.
You'll notice many common practices among shooters.

- Isosceles triangle stance
- Lean shoulders forward
- Suck in tummy
- 80% arm extension
- Left wrist completed locked forward/downward
- Left hand gripping down at 45degree angle, automatically squeezes - right hand up higher into the dovetail
- Firm grip strength: 70% grip strength on left hand, 30% grip strength on right hand
- Light trigger pull with just the first section of index finger
- No jerking, pushing or pulling of trigger with index finger
- No jerking of gun downward in anticipation of muzzle flip (ie, no flinching)
- Focus on the front sights, and not on the back sights


This is how I was taught many years ago when I first started shooting IPSC and USPSA.
Although I had read a lot already, getting a human coach 1-on-1 sped up my learning exponentially.

[wu_dot_com]

I disagree. It's not a question of one's "personal" interpretation of the fundamentals. The fundamentals are pretty well established, and first class shooting means executing those fundamentals properly and consistently.

by personal interpenetration i mean tailor the shooting principle to their own unique shooting capability boundaries. i.e. things like tilting the gun for cross eye dominate, different trigger finger position placement, shoulder locking position, foot position, center of gravity for body stance etc. what i've found is that what works best for some might not work at all for another. its all a bit of trail and error of the principle application of shooting technique.

Prepping the trigger (taking up the slack in the trigger) is a fundamental component of a good trigger press and proper trigger control. And trigger control is the first principle of accurate shooting.

And how are you on trigger reset?

okay that makes sense, its just another jargon here.

from my experience, taking up trigger slack is more dependent on the equipment than actual fundamentals. some gun will require this take up, while others have 2 stage trigger. some have zero take up. each will require a different style of trigger/ sight picture timing to deliver an accurate shot. also this should only affect your shots on the first shot if the trigger was reset properly. its not something you need an instructor to master it, just a lot of dry fire or live fire.

for the most part, i am decent with my reset. right now i am working on cutting down the reset timing. this reset timing is where my gun return from recoil and i regain sight picture alignment to the brain give me finger the command to release the trigger until reset. as far as my proficiency goes, every once in a while, i will still jump the shots by accident. by accident i mean i break the shots before my new sight picture is fully settle as i am trying to break the time barrier from a 5 shots 10 second string to 6 second string. but this topic only matters if the shooter is intended to shoot strings. for single shot accuracy, trigger reset should not matter to him.

[bubbapug1]

1. The best way to shoot more consistantly is to shoot a good gun, like a 1911 with a nice trigger. Most 1911's have great triggers,

2. Next would be getting your grip squared away...watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c&feature=related

3. I find the biggest issue with shooters AFTER they get the trip worked out is flinch or anticipation of recoil. One way to get around this problem is to practice repeatedly with a 22lr pistol. Get used to shooing with no recoil, and watch to make sure you aren't jerking the trigger. Another excellent way to get around this problem is to dry fire...a lot. Dry fire allows you to see where the gun ends up as you pull the trigger...the gun should stay on target.

Put all of that together and if you don't start to flinch immediatly when you pull out the bigger gun you will shoot better.

[Blackhawk556]

^^^ this video that bubba posted is extremely helpful. Before I use to go to the range and pull the trigger not knowing what the hell I was doing. Once I watched this video and applied Todd's techniques, my groups started shrinking dramatically . I still need practice, but compared to before my groups have improved. I swear that is one of the best videos anyone new to shooting should watch. OP, watch this video and use todd's techniques, he's a world champion so he knows what he's talking about.

[9mmepiphany]

classes is needed for tactical training for sure. but accuracy shooting is just your personal interpretation of the shooting fundamentals.

If you believe you can learn accuracy from reading the fundamental, why would you not believe that you could learn tactics the same way. I found it was actually easier to pickup tactical training than to learn to shoot quickly while maintaining accuracy

from my experience, taking up trigger slack is more dependent on the equipment than actual fundamentals. some gun will require this take up, while others have 2 stage trigger. some have zero take up. each will require a different style of trigger/ sight picture timing to deliver an accurate shot.

That is a common belief among folks who are self-taught. There is only one way to correctly prep a trigger and you should not be preping a DA trigger at all...like the Sig DAK, H&K LEM, Kahr or DAO revolver...their management is completely different, if you want to shoot quickly and accurately. The only pistols I've ever come across with zero takeup were Olympic single shots, if you think that you have a Service pistol trigger that you can't "Stand On" a bit, you're just slapping through it

this reset timing is where my gun return from recoil and i regain sight picture alignment to the brain give me finger the command to release the trigger until reset. as far as my proficiency goes, every once in a while, i will still jump the shots by accident. by accident i mean i break the shots before my new sight picture is fully settle as i am trying to break the time barrier from a 5 shots 10 second string to 6 second string.

Shooting like that, it may be a while until you get up to speed.

A fairly standard evaluation drill is Todd Green's F.A.S.T. It consist of:
1. drawing and firing 2 shots in a 3"x5" card
2. reload from slide lock
3. firing 4 more shots into a 8" plate/circle
4. all fairly close at 7 yards

The ranking system is:
10+ seconds: Novice
less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
less than 7 seconds: Advanced
less than 5 seconds: Expert

The record is 3.56 seconds...oh, did I mention that is from concealment

In the classes that Shenaniguns, IPSICK and Voo are referring to, the expectation is that by the end of a 2 or 3 day class, that all the students will be shooting at 4 accurate shots per second and closer to 5 per second. Granted, at that speed, we're not shooting into 1" groups...mostly into 4"-6".

We do slow down for accuracy and we've likely added some things. I can't remember if we had them cutting the playing cards in half edgewise from 5 yards when they took the class. This isn't some of the students, this is every student in the class.

[Bryansix]

Playing and practicing notes and music doesn't cost money but shooting live rounds down range does. Now who's being dishonest?

I guess you missed my first post in this thread about airsoft. It costs about $10 per 10,000 rounds fired out of my airsoft gun. I recycle the BBs so its for the lube and the gas to operate the blowback.

[Shenaniguns]

I'm glad somebody else explained it

[richie3888]

Set up a target at your home and dry fired for 20mins a day. Try to Pull the trigger without moving the front sight.

[wu_dot_com]

If you believe you can learn accuracy from reading the fundamental, why would you not believe that you could learn tactics the same way. I found it was actually easier to pickup tactical training than to learn to shoot quickly while maintaining accuracy


That is a common belief among folks who are self-taught. There is only one way to correctly prep a trigger and you should not be preping a DA trigger at all...like the Sig DAK, H&K LEM, Kahr or DAO revolver...their management is completely different, if you want to shoot quickly and accurately. The only pistols I've ever come across with zero takeup were Olympic single shots, if you think that you have a Service pistol trigger that you can't "Stand On" a bit, you're just slapping through it


Shooting like that, it may be a while until you get up to speed.

A fairly standard evaluation drill is Todd Green's F.A.S.T. It consist of:
1. drawing and firing 2 shots in a 3"x5" card
2. reload from slide lock
3. firing 4 more shots into a 8" plate/circle
4. all fairly close at 7 yards

The ranking system is:
10+ seconds: Novice
less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
less than 7 seconds: Advanced
less than 5 seconds: Expert

The record is 3.56 seconds...oh, did I mention that is from concealment

In the classes that Shenaniguns, IPSICK and Voo are referring to, the expectation is that by the end of a 2 or 3 day class, that all the students will be shooting at 4 accurate shots per second and closer to 5 per second. Granted, at that speed, we're not shooting into 1" groups...mostly into 4"-6".

We do slow down for accuracy and we've likely added some things. I can't remember if we had them cutting the playing cards in half edgewise from 5 yards when they took the class. This isn't some of the students, this is every student in the class.

[9mmepiphany]

I recycle the BBs so its for the lube and the gas to operate the blowback.

While you are of course free to recycle if you'd like, most manuals I've read advise against it...maybe they just want to sell more 6mm pellets...as the pellets deform when striking a surface (affects accuracy) and dirt is picked up which is abrasive to the inside of the barrel tube (affects velocity also)

[9mmepiphany]

my experience comes from shooting Olympic style rapid fire, and im currently doing most of my practice on M41.

keep in mind that all those are shooting international style, i.e. free standing, 1 hand, iron only.

Todd Green's F.A.S.T IMO is still more tactical orientated than actual accuracy. hence the draw fire / reload.

Thank you for the clarification.

This certainly explains much more about your post and views. International Shooting is a completely different animal than what I thought we were all talking about...but there is a great deal of technique to be learned from it. International Air Pistol was a huge eye opener for me in the importance of follow through. I don't personally have the patience for it, but certainly respect practitioners who do.

Perhaps I mis-read the OP...maybe I'm just used to addressing a more practical side to accuracy when folks ask questions here...but my sense was that the OP was less about ultimate accuracy than practical accuracy.

You are right in that Green's test is more about the use of a concealed handgun in everyday carry.

What folks find interesting, maybe somewhat disbelieving, but advanced shooting at speed is based on seeing the sights in the same way as Olympic shooters do...with the subconscious

[wu_dot_com]

If you believe you can learn accuracy from reading the fundamental, why would you not believe that you could learn tactics the same way. I found it was actually easier to pickup tactical training than to learn to shoot quickly while maintaining accuracy

i guess the reason why i said that is because i have no way of getting actual practical experience from a tactical environment. thus there is no way i can replicate the true condition and restrain to simulate tactical shooting.

in my mind, the only way for me to know if i am doing tactical shooting correctly is to put me into a shoot out environment. since i cant do that, i will need a coach to to explain the missing pieces.

accuracy shooting condition on the other hand can be replicated at the range. so i will know if im doing something right or wrong immediately. at least for my kind of accuracy shooting anyway.

[Gecko 45]

ive found the best way to is to just practice. Me and my fellow officers go through a couple hundred rounds at the range every night, me using a Glock 23 and going for a standard two to the chest one in the head. If you do it enough you will eventually be able to make smaller than 1" groups at 25 yards as i have

[Shenaniguns]

Todd Green's F.A.S.T IMO is still more tactical orientated than actual accuracy shooting. hence the draw and reload.

at 7yds, placing all the shots using both hands its generally much easier for me even with larger calibers.

Learning how to shoot accurately quickly from a holster is not what I'd call 'tactical'. And there is a difference on what people want to do accuracy wise so I'll agree there, but I believe the OP is talking of practical accuracy and not Bullseye type.