Carry without a round in a chamber = FAIL

[Spirit 1]

When carrying on the way to town I choose Condition 3. If a mechanical failure or blowout sends me over the side the last other thing I want to worry about is an AD shooting myself in the impact of rolling & tumbling down the cliff. Condition 3 carry is safer. As I approach town the road becomes much more manageable so I have plenty of time to go to Condition 1 if needs be.




the LOL turbines have kicked into full throttle now...

Looks like you should have tried harder, because one of the other members posted that he hadn't seen any of the insults I had commented on. Thanks for your very useful contribution to this thread. By the way, what was the usefulness?

[k1dude]

Unbelievable! Just because I don't agree with some folks ideas on condition of carry I'm a BRADY PLANT??? Are you kidding me? And because my views differ from yours I'm probably not even a gun owner?

I cannot help what you cannot see in threads here, due to your own myopia on what is 'right' according to you. However you are fabricating and are not telling the truth at all. I never in any way implied that "MOST of the gun owners posting here are Rambo wannabees." I suggested that one or some may be, and have done my best to show respect to others as the large majority.

"Third, many of us posting in this thread carry on a daily basis, we do not have a hidden desire to kill people. If we did, where is the bloodbath that the anti's have always claimed will happen? We carry because we want to stay alive by protecting ourselves. We don't have these insulting hidden fantasy's that you claim."

I did not throw a blanket indictment over everyone that has a different viewpoint from mine, not even close to that. I never suggested in any way that everyone here that carries is just waiting to kill! Where did you get that? If you think I did then either you can't understand what I read or you're creating a reality that doesn't exist. Now you've got yourself all worked up because you think I said what you think I said, instead of taking the time to go back and read, word for word, what I've posted in numerous posts, to actually find out what I did say. You end up around the corner & down the road outta sight running with what you imagine I said.

Just like everyone else posting here I'm a VERY strong believer, supporter & practioner of 2A RIGHTS and personal defensive carry and it's been a part of my life for decades. Most of my close friends have shared these views as well. Where I did speak against the Rambo types it's 100% valid, but thankfully they're a relatively small percentage of gun owners. Don't try to convince me or us that they are a figment of the imagination because unfortunately, it just isn't so. In that respect I think it's up to us to police our own, or give guidance where appropriate, which is what I was doing!

Re-read what you wrote again. My post had absolutely NOTHING to do with your argument. It had EVERYTHING to do with your portrayal of gun owners and specifically an indictment of the posters in this thread. If you can't see that you're blind as a bat and no one can help you. Good day.

[Spirit 1]

I won't insult you spirit, but I think being worried about an AD if you go over the edge of the road is 2 things.

#1, I don't think you need to worry about an AD in that situation, I think most any modern pistol is safe for 30-60 seconds of random tumbling.

#2, not to be morbid, but if you're going over the cliff, I don't think being shot changes your odds of survival very much in the astronomically unlikely event that it occurs.

Oh, I agree a whole bunch! Thing is it's very similar to the thread topic, as in the matter of the odds of an event happening and what we can possibly do to shift the odds in our favor. I do what I can, even though I seriously doubt, according to statistics, that I'll ever actually need a defensive weapon for the rest of my life. Hope not anyway....

[tacticalcity]

On a side note (and others have sort of gone here) if the gun is not being carried but stored I am not comfortable with it being loaded. Once it leaves my possession I cannot trust the condition of the weapon regardless. Before using it I would need to confirm the condition anyway. So I store my semi-auto handguns with the slide locked to the rear, and no magazine inserted. My nightstand gun has a loaded magazine right next to it along with a tactical light and nothing else in the drawer. Loading it is a quick process.

Even if I had it stored loaded I would need to do a chamber-check, mag-check, chamber-check to confirm the status before trusting it so the advantage of doing so for a firefight is not a great as it sounds. Every time my gun leaves my possession and I go to pick it up, I do a chamber-check, mag-check, chamber check. And if the goal is for it to be empty (as in before dry fire practice) then storing it the way I do comes in handy.

Between my military training which insists that weapons not be stored loaded and the fact that I do a lot of dry fire practice so 99.9999% of the time when I am not carrying I want the gun unloaded. It just works better for me.

But when carrying, I carry loaded - round in the chamber.

[Spirit 1]

For those who taught themselves how to shoot, this is going to sound extremely snobbish...but it really is true.

There is a right way and a wrong way to carry. The right way dramatically increases your chances of survival...and that is to carry with a round in the chamber.

If you are not confident enough in your firearms skills to carry with a round in the chamber then you really should not be carrying at all. You simply lack the necessary training and skill set. Odds are you will end up doing more harm than good. Sure, it is your constitutional right. However, you owe it to yourself, your loved ones, and those you will be around while armed to take some professional firearms courses and beef up your skill set so that you will not only prevail but not harm the wrong people should you ever find yourself in a fire fight.

If you are nervous carrying with a round in the chamber I do not want you near me when armed. Because if you had the necessary training and skill level to carry concealed you would not be nervious at all. That is the very definition of dangerous - and there is no excuse for it. Not with so many affordable training courses right here in California.

Not only will you not have time to chamber a round in a fire fight (since you are the good guy you will be way behind the power curve as it is) you are someone who lacks the training and experience to know that you won't have that time. That likely means you likely lack all the other skill sets you would have picked up with proper training that are necessary to not only survive a gun battle but keep you from harming innocent bystanders in the process. This stuff is a lot more difficult than it looks. A lot of very difficult to execute concepts all need to be put into practice all at the same time. The best way to ensure you can do that is with proper training and practice.

I strongly recommend some professional training. Not just to build your carry confidence, but because the courses are a lot of fun. They are win-win.

Here are some pictures of my cousin on the trip to Front Sight last winter. He started off with no practical experience, and left very confident in his abilities, not mention eager to take more courses. Sadly I do not have any pictures from my training with Stone Cobra Tactical, but they are an excellent local resource. Notice that he is training from the holster, and in the second group of pictures he is training from concealment as well. I am sure there is a school near you that will help you beef up your skill level and confidence that you would not hesitate to carry with a round in the chamber (as well as all the other scary things that go along with concealed carry) and be safe while doing so.

Man on man shoot out at the end of the course...




Training in the rain...

Congratulations there, tacticalcity! I didn't think it was possible, as I've never seen so many erroneous ASSUMPTIONS piled up in one place at one time!

I do not insist on ONLY CONDITION 1 CARRY, but I am certainly no part of the picture you paint of the ineptitude and total lack of skills & training in people who believe as I do. I'm happy you have been able to receive training. I respect your decision in what is the preferred method of carry, FOR YOU. Otherwise your generalities, assertions & accusations about the skill set and experience of anyone who doesn't agree with you, really, really lacks.

[Spirit 1]

And you don't feel comfortable carrying C1 for very strange reasons given your examples? LOL

50 years huh? I guess this is where Quality definitely beats Quantity...
Where did you receive this so called professional level training?

I've only been shooting since 1998 and have taken a few classes with Todd Green and Bruce Gray as the more notable but I have friends and family that are also instructors which saves me $$$

Very strange reasons? You mean very strange like wanting to lower the odds of an AD in the event of a serious wreck on treacherous mountain roads in the depths of winter?

"50 years huh? I guess this is where Quality definitely beats Quantity...
Where did you receive this so called professional level training?"

So, your hopes that I was an unskilled, untrained newbie were dashed and backfired, therefore it's time to roll out some insults at my particular training, which you know absolutely nothing about. You have achieved some higher level of training and expertise in 13 years of experience than I have in 50 years? You're convinced of that because I say that at times Con 1 carry is not necessarily the only or best option?

As I mentioned before in this thread, my professional training started well before my teens thanks to a father who was a professional instructor. Over the years my training has included many different options for carry & use, some good, some bad. This includes the old days on the Texas Border, misc. government service, battle hardened survivor professional, out on the mean streets and many other circumstances, long before your time I think. I somehow doubt you spent any quality time with Keith or Cooper or, well, so many others. Regardless, my training has been far more than sufficient.

[Spirit 1]

I saw that I originally wrote in the first paragraph, "...as long as the gun and carrying equipment is safe...". I corrected this to read, "...as long as the gun and carrying equipment are safe...."

If you are receiving email updates when something is posted in a thread to which you've subscribed, you should have the original form of my post in that email.

I'll leave it to others to decide if I agreed with you or not.

Thank you.

[Spirit 1]

Re-read what you wrote again. My post had absolutely NOTHING to do with your argument. It had EVERYTHING to do with your portrayal of gun owners and specifically an indictment of the posters in this thread. If you can't see that you're blind as a bat and no one can help you. Good day.

You still don't get it! I spoke against one, or some, as in less than 3, not all gun owners, like myself, and not all posters. Matter of fact it wasn't specifically pointed at folks posting in this thread. Therefore your getting all hot under the collar and defensive because I apparently insulted you personally and all the others posting here is 100% incorrect, uncalled for and a complete misunderstanding on your part, not mine.

And I hope your day gets better.

[Shenaniguns]

Very strange reasons? You mean very strange like wanting to lower the odds of an AD in the event of a serious wreck on treacherous mountain roads in the depths of winter?

"50 years huh? I guess this is where Quality definitely beats Quantity...
Where did you receive this so called professional level training?"

So, your hopes that I was an unskilled, untrained newbie were dashed and backfired, therefore it's time to roll out some insults at my particular training, which you know absolutely nothing about. You have achieved some higher level of training and expertise in 13 years of experience than I have in 50 years? You're convinced of that because I say that at times Con 1 carry is not necessarily the only or best option?

As I mentioned before in this thread, my professional training started well before my teens thanks to a father who was a professional instructor. Over the years my training has included many different options for carry & use, some good, some bad. This includes the old days on the Texas Border, misc. government service, battle hardened survivor professional, out on the mean streets and many other circumstances, long before your time I think. I somehow doubt you spent any quality time with Keith or Cooper or, well, so many others. Regardless, my training has been far more than sufficient.

Sorry, for these 50 years of training you sure don't show it in your posts. Hell you even compared racking a slide on a semi-auto to thumbing a hammer on a SAO revolver lol. Do I think you're an untrained newbie? Probably not but I think you're casual shooting with who you stated is what you consider training. Or you just didn't absorb and retain it.


I think my Father who is a current instructor who also trains me is adequate as well

Expertise: Certified POST Instructor in, Firearms,
Officer Involved Shooting Investigations,
Bomb Investigations, Surveillance,
Dignitary/Witness Protection, Command
Post, Basic Academy-Crime in Progress.
CPR/BLS


Have I trained with Cooper? I have not had the pleasure. Elmer Keith? Yeah he dies when I was 10 I listed 2 instructors above which you probably never heard of but are pretty well known as current instructors and/or Gunsmiths.

[titankeith]

On a side note (and others have sort of gone here) if the gun is not being carried but stored I am not comfortable with it being loaded. Once it leaves my possession I cannot trust the condition of the weapon regardless. Before using it I would need to confirm the condition anyway. So I store my semi-auto handguns with the slide locked to the rear, and no magazine inserted. My nightstand gun has a loaded magazine right next to it along with a tactical light and nothing else in the drawer. Loading it is a quick process.

Even if I had it stored loaded I would need to do a chamber-check, mag-check, chamber-check to confirm the status before trusting it so the advantage of doing so for a firefight is not a great as it sounds. Every time my gun leaves my possession and I go to pick it up, I do a chamber-check, mag-check, chamber check. And if the goal is for it to be empty (as in before dry fire practice) then storing it the way I do comes in handy.

Between my military training which insists that weapons not be stored loaded and the fact that I do a lot of dry fire practice so 99.9999% of the time when I am not carrying I want the gun unloaded. It just works better for me.

But when carrying, I carry loaded - round in the chamber.

I agree with everything but your nightstand gun...My opinion it should be loaded, unless you worry about kids...then it should be loaded at night, and unloaded when you leave for work.

[Shenaniguns]

I agree with everything but your nightstand gun...My opinion it should be loaded, unless you worry about kids...then it should be loaded at night, and unloaded when you leave for work.

My HD gun is loaded mag but not chambered and I feel comfortable with the 30 seconds to a minute that I will have to chamber it if the alarm goes off. My CCW gun which is also near me is the only gun I keep hot 100% of the time.

[ZombieTactics]

Hmmm, lots of attitude abounds when you challenge "conventional wisdom" (which is often a contradtiction in terms).

Having been shooting for over 35 years, and having taken my first training (from a been there/done that Nam vet and Stockton PD officer) about 30 years ago, and having trained extensively over the last few decades, I find these comments odd to say the least.

In reference to that first course, I was assured by my expert instructor that my newly-purchased Glock was "junk", and that point-shooting was the REAL tactical shooting ... anything else would get you killed, and bothering with all that two-handed, sight-picture stuff was a fad (like my Glock) which would soon go the way of the dinosaur in the face of what "real shooters" know.

Uh huh.

Later course were less dogmatic regarding regarding The Modern Technique, but perhaps even more strident in their disdain for my "combat Tupperware". More than one assured me that it would fail me when I most needed it ... and get me killed.

Right.

Tea-cupping was THE HOLD according to one instructor. .45ACP was the only, only, ONLY sensible choice for a self-defense round according to another. Anything else ... gets you killled, duncha know?

Without any conceivable doubt ... why would I ever question or think otherwise?

I've been through a whole lot of "preaching" about some dang'd "everybody knows it" nonsense of one kind or another over the years, but I've also learned a helluva lot from my various teachers ... although perhaps not always what they intended to teach me.

In 2009 I attended 2 handgun classes. In 2010 I attended a rifle class and a shotgun class in addition to a "refresher" for handgun. This year I've been to 3 handgun classes and 2 rifle classes already, plus a combo (albeit basic) rifle/pistol class.

I've become accustomed to the idea that using my own mind has served me every bit as well as any "official holy writ of the gun gawdz" ever has. I continue to train, especially with schools offering different techniques and methods. The differences teach me much more than I could ever learn from simply accepting ONE school of thought.

If the notion that I disagree with you causes you to suspect my competence, I respectfully ask that you examine your own preconceptions.

[negolien]

All in all most would probably "prefer" to carry locked and cocked.. HOWEVER that doen't mean it's a fit all for everyone or all the time simple fact. Training can help in these situations as the Israelis have show many times. Seen many a video of them training for unloaded violant confrontations... train how you fight!! I agree with the depends what your doing and where your going but like with cheap ammo people are going to have their minds made up no matter what ya say.

[tacticalcity]

Congratulations there, tacticalcity! I didn't think it was possible, as I've never seen so many erroneous ASSUMPTIONS piled up in one place at one time!

I do not insist on ONLY CONDITION 1 CARRY, but I am certainly no part of the picture you paint of the ineptitude and total lack of skills & training in people who believe as I do. I'm happy you have been able to receive training. I respect your decision in what is the preferred method of carry, FOR YOU. Otherwise your generalities, assertions & accusations about the skill set and experience of anyone who doesn't agree with you, really, really lacks.

Did I just not say how I wanted to keep my comments generalized and not a personal attack? Did I not say that I found all the nasty comments to each other distasteful? I made ZERO reference to you. What gives man? Why the chip on your shoulder?

I have no problem with UOC to prove a political point (although I think all the attitude towards the PD is distasteful and a major distraction) if that is where you are headed with your remarks.

Other than that I honestly cannot think of a justification for carrying without a round in the chamber with self defense as all or part of your objective. It runs 100% contrary to all doctrine, training and personal experiences that I have. It is a cardinal sin in the circles I run with. This concept is addressed in every entry level class I have ever seen. It is handgun 101. There are countless drills demonstrating how ineffective it is, and countless of examples of how it has gotten people killed in real life gun battles.

Of all the posts I have seen where people advocate carrying without a round in the chamber, they almost always center around being uncomfortable with their own firearms skills and are worried about safety. Which by definition says they lack the proper training and experience. With said training, practice and experience they develop confidence in their own abilities and no longer fear carrying with a round in the chamber.

If you have some other justification for carrying without a round in the chamber I would love to hear it and we can have a nice polite debate. Let me know why, despite having complete confidence in your ability to handle the firearm safely you feel it necessary to carry without a round chambered. Issue a counter filled with facts and scenarios that backup your views and loose the attitude please.

The attitude you're dishing out is completely overriding any point you are trying to make. The ears turn off and stop listening automatically. Flies. Sugar. Vinegar. Any of that ringing a bell?

[tacticalcity]

Hmmm, lots of attitude abounds when you challenge "conventional wisdom" (which is often a contradtiction in terms).

Having been shooting for over 35 years, and having taken my first training (from a been there/done that Nam vet and Stockton PD officer) about 30 years ago, and having trained extensively over the last few decades, I find these comments odd to say the least.

In reference to that first course, I was assured by my expert instructor that my newly-purchased Glock was "junk", and that point-shooting was the REAL tactical shooting ... anything else would get you killed, and bothering with all that two-handed, sight-picture stuff was a fad (like my Glock) which would soon go the way of the dinosaur in the face of what "real shooters" know.

Uh huh.

Later course were less dogmatic regarding regarding The Modern Technique, but perhaps even more strident in their disdain for my "combat Tupperware". More than one assured me that it would fail me when I most needed it ... and get me killed.

Right.

Tea-cupping was THE HOLD according to one instructor. .45ACP was the only, only, ONLY sensible choice for a self-defense round according to another. Anything else ... gets you killled, duncha know?

Without any conceivable doubt ... why would I ever question or think otherwise?

I've been through a whole lot of "preaching" about some dang'd "everybody knows it" nonsense of one kind or another over the years, but I've also learned a helluva lot from my various teachers ... although perhaps not always what they intended to teach me.

In 2009 I attended 2 handgun classes. In 2010 I attended a rifle class and a shotgun class in addition to a "refresher" for handgun. This year I've been to 3 handgun classes and 2 rifle classes already, plus a combo (albeit basic) rifle/pistol class.

I've become accustomed to the idea that using my own mind has served me every bit as well as any "official holy writ of the gun gawdz" ever has. I continue to train, especially with schools offering different techniques and methods. The differences teach me much more than I could ever learn from simply accepting ONE school of thought.

If the notion that I disagree with you causes you to suspect my competence, I respectfully ask that you examine your own preconceptions.

Well I for one love your Tupperware with the big G on the side of it and I fully admit tactics and views are constantly changing. I try to take at least one course per weapon system that I own per year (more if I can afford it), usually from the same schools, and the methods and techniques always vary a little from year to year as things evolve.

However, when it comes to carrying unloaded, which in my view is what carrying without a round in the chamber is, I would just like to hear a scenario that makes sense. So far all the scenarios I have read on here fall back to a lack of confidence in one's ability. Maybe I missed the post where somebody offered up a great example of where it makes sense and where proper training would not invalidate their argument. I would love to hear it. I just haven't seen it yet. In such a scenario, where doing so is the absolute best case option and more training, practice, and confidence would not make it obsolete then I am all for it. I am just not sure when that would be. If you find yourself in that scenario, you have my sympathy.