Hydrostatic Shock

[Revolverhawk]

http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.3051

[leelaw]

Thoughts?

Shot placement is more important than counting on long-term brain damage to an attacker caused by some remote wound. If I need to cause serious brain damage to an attacker requiring deadly force as a response, I'll shoot them in the head.

[elSquid]

Hence, I have a question: Has anyone exposed the research of Courtney and Courtney to be false? From my perspective, there seems to be a lot of evidence to support hydrostatic shock, many subjects have shown brain damage from being shot in the torso, or, in the case of animals smaller than a human, even a body part as remote as the leg.

Searching for his name on the big forums will result in hours and hours of reading. A sample:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28142

I am asking because I am trying to choose a defensive handgun to sit in a lockbox outside the safe, and I am trying to decide between a .357 magnum revolver and a .40 S&W DA/SA semi auto.

Both are reasonable choices. Probably best to the pick the one that you are most comfortable with/shoot the best/etc. If you don't have a clear favorite, then go with the auto. <shrug>

-- Michael

[tommyid1]

I did a physiology paper on gunshot wounds. ill upload it here

[Revolverhawk]

Thoughts?

Shot placement is more important than counting on long-term brain damage to an attacker caused by some remote wound. If I need to cause serious brain damage to an attacker requiring deadly force as a response, I'll shoot them in the head.

In some cases, they seem to record animals instantly becoming unconcious due to hydrostatic shock/ballistic pressure waves. Here is an example:

"Hydrostatic shock is commonly considered as a factor in the selection of hunting ammunition. Peter Capstick explains that hydrostatic shock may have value for animals up to the size of white-tailed deer, but the ratio of energy transfer to animal weight is an important consideration for larger animals. If the animal’s weight exceeds the bullet’s energy transfer, penetration in an undeviating line to a vital organ is a much more important consideration than energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.[76] Jim Carmichael, in contrast, describes evidence that hydrostatic shock can affect animals as large as Cape Buffalo in the results of a carefully controlled study carried out by veterinarians in a buffalo culling operation.

Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals. Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage.

– Jim Carmichael[77]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock#Ammunition_selection_for_hunting

According to this, some of the Buffalo dropped instantly, became unconsious instantly, and developed brain bleeding from being shot in the torso(heart/lung area). Unfortunately, I don't know what cartridges they were using, or what distances they were shooting from.

Hence I don't know if it is practical to expect a .357 magnum to do similar to a human being.

[tommyid1]

here is the paper I had to remove the pictures so calguns would accept due to file size. If anyone wants the full paper and the presentation to go with it please let me know or pm me.

[leelaw]

In some cases,

That's the important part. If you want to count on brain damage, then the brain should be disrupted directly (ie: a projectile into the head) rather than counting on any secondary effects from a shot to a remote location on the body.

When it comes to self defense shooting, you want to shoot to stop the threat, whether that means a center mass shot, or headshot. With that in mind, shot placement is more important than the caliber, to an extent. In your consideration of .357 vs. .40, either should suffice, and I'd recommend that you have whichever you are more proficient with at the ready.

[Revolverhawk]

here is the paper I had to remove the pictures so calguns would accept due to file size. If anyone wants the full paper and the presentation to go with it please let me know or pm me.

Uh...I don't have a program that can read that. Where can I download a program that can handle that?

[tommyid1]

Hahaha oops ill upload it in word 2000 tomorrow lol. In my presentation I have some charts I drew up examining energy of a projective under different weights and speeds

[johnthomas]

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of wounded vets that would argue with your theory.

[wadalaba]

open office will open up i think most kinds of .doc files.

[Dirty506]

somthin bit me in the buttocks once in afghaniland.... and now i'm dumber than a door nail. my *** must have affected my brain duh duh do

[stacym]

Interesting theory. However, I guarantee a good center mass shot will cause brain damage - because they'll bleed out and won't have blood to perfuse their brain!

[magic32]

in theory brain damage should occur, this is true. but the human body is pretty complex. numerous well placed shots as stated should do the trick. enjoy.

[dascoyne]

Hydrostatic shock should not be confused with neurovascular shock (which may happen as a result of direct tissue injury or hydrostatic shock). Neurovascular shock is responsible for those unusual phenomena as someone dying from a wound from "non-critical" areas of the body. Modern defensive handgun training is centered on exploiting neurovascular shock to "stop" a subject - the highest likelihood of stopping the subject (other than the triangle between the eyes) being the high thoracic (heart and lungs) area.

Hydrostatic shock is a different thing altogether - I'll write more on my take later but I have to get to work now. I'm an Internal Medicine Physician BTW.