(1) can a 80% *1911* frame be mailed to a CA resident (2)can it be completed legally?

[D.R.E.]

I'm seeing a lot of conflicting information on this and don't want to be a test case.

First: can a 80% 1911 frame be mailed to a non-FFL holder? While this seems true in the rest of the US, I see various caveats about CA. Not sure if these people know their law, however.

Second, can a non-FFL holder complete a 80% frame (not for resale and not with help)? This seemed to be a straightforward "yes" but then I ran across an old post by bweise. Have things changed since 2004?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-21511.html

When you build up 80% frames (i.e, frames that were unserialized and are just non-firearm 'hunks of metal' when you acquired them) and then mill out the requisite holes, grooves etc and get it into a firearm 'frame', you could be considered manufacturing an unsafe gun.

This is different than having a serialize 1911 frame you had on hand before 2001, or got via legit F2F PPT, etc. and then adding slide, rail, etc. is just changing the form of a legitimately-owned unsafe gun.

You can't read the law always for exact detail. When there are small perceived loopholes, courts do hold in high regard the sense/intent of the legislation, which was - except for expressly outlined exemptions (personal handgun importers, face to face PPTs, one-offs for testing & evaluation, LEO/gov't items) - the goal to ban further introduction of unsafe handguns in CA. This is where judges end up making law when things are murky in written law + administrative regulations.

Also, remember that you are unlikely to ever be prosecuted by Cal DOJ. Most prosecutions of average schmucks like us are done by one of the 58 local county DAs. Their opinions do sometimes differ w/Cal DOJ: in fact Cal DOJ Firearms has been sued - and lost! - several times on gun issues. Generally their opinion/administration of technical standards and administrative law is held as reference but there are exceptions.

But when I hear Tim Riegert, asst head of Cal DOJ Firearms Div (a very bright well-spoken guy, and a lawyer), being directly asked about homebuilt handguns and he says it's banned, quotes 12125, mentioned issues of "legislative intent" to ban 'unsafe' guns, I'm gonna listen to him instead of a bunch armchair lawyers (myself included). Hearing it from the "horse's mouth" does count for something.

[SJgunguy24]

I'm seeing a lot of conflicting information on this and don't want to be a test case.

First: can a 80% 1911 frame be mailed to a non-FFL holder? While this seems true in the rest of the US, I see various caveats about CA. Not sure if these people know their law, however.

Second, can a non-FFL holder complete a 80% frame (not for resale and not with help)? This seemed to be a straightforward "yes" but then I ran across an old post by bweise. Have things changed since 2004?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a...p/t-21511.html

Yes, things have changed quite a bit. Yes you can have an 80% receiver mailed to you, and yes you may build it.

It's no different then an AK flat.

[jtmkinsd]

Yes, things have changed quite a bit. Yes you can have an 80% receiver mailed to you, and yes you may build it.

It's no different then an AK flat.

He's not talking about an 80% rifle receiver though...he is talking about a handgun 80% frame. It looks like with the intent of the legislature on this, you would be maufacturing an unsafe handgun. It's a gray area, but I prolly would advise against this after doing more research. Could you do it? Yes...but should you? I wouldn't. I'd wait until the list was struck down in court.

[gasol1ne]

ive been reading about how people have been making ak and ar pistols from 80% receivers so i dont see how a creating a 1911 from an 80% receiver would be any different.

[hammerhands32]

What about guys building ar pistols from 80% lowers. Seems like the same thing to me.

[jtmkinsd]

What about guys building ar pistols from 80% lowers. Seems like the same thing to me.

True...guess the water has gotten even murkier on this...but even though many have done it, doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't come back to bite them in the end.

If it were to come down to being in front of a judge, how do you think "but everyone else is doing it" is going to fly with him/her?

[nick]

Lots of FUD here.

There's no law against building an unsafe, poorly working, or completely crappy handgun as long as:

1. You build it for yourself, not for resale. If you decide to sell it down the road, make sure to mark it according to the federal guidelines.

2. The gun has to follow an existing design, otherwise you'd be building a zip gun, which there is a law against. A 1911 is quite an existing design.

So yes, you can build a 1911 from an 80% frame. That being said, you'll most likely find a 60% frame, due to some ATF shenanigans a few years ago.

[1911Luvr]

Lots of FUD here.

There's no law against building an unsafe, poorly working, or completely crappy handgun as long as:

1. You build it for yourself, not for resale. If you decide to sell it down the road, make sure to mark it according to the federal guidelines.

2. The gun has to follow an existing design, otherwise you'd be building a zip gun, which there is a law against. A 1911 is quite an existing design.

So yes, you can build a 1911 from an 80% frame. That being said, you'll most likely find a 60% frame, due to some ATF shenanigans a few years ago.

+1 on this. My gunsmith has quoted me the exact same thing since I had wanted to do a complete frame up build. Unfortunately he has a stack of 60-80% frames that are little more than a paperweight now since he cannot legally build them up and sell them.

Since you can't bring a frame into CA anymore (a few exceptions exist), you would be better advised to find a frame already in CA and build from that. At least that way you can sell it easily later should the need arise.

[eccvets]

+1 on this. My gunsmith has quoted me the exact same thing since I had wanted to do a complete frame up build. Unfortunately he has a stack of 60-80% frames that are little more than a paperweight now since he cannot legally build them up and sell them.

Since you can't bring a frame into CA anymore (a few exceptions exist), you would be better advised to find a frame already in CA and build from that. At least that way you can sell it easily later should the need arise.

sell your gun later? why in gods name would you ever wanna do that?

[pk308]

So let me get this straight, you can complete an 80% 1911 frame yourself in CA, but you can't bring the frame into CA. So does that mean that they cannot be shipped to CA?

[ChrisO]

Where can one get a 80% 1911 frame then?

[jtmkinsd]

So let me get this straight, you can complete an 80% 1911 frame yourself in CA, but you can't bring the frame into CA. So does that mean that they cannot be shipped to CA?

As a general rule...no, you may not ship handgun frames into CA...some exemptions do exist (thompson pistol frames for instance)...the catch being 80% frames are not "firearms" yet...an individual can finish an 80% themselves (as long as it is finished by themselves, and is not being finished for resale, and it is from an existing design).

[wildhawker]

So let me get this straight, you can complete an 80% 1911 frame yourself in CA, but you can't bring the frame into CA. So does that mean that they cannot be shipped to CA?

You may "bring them in" during a move (except AW pistols and high-cap mags), but you cannot buy non-Rostered handguns unless you are exempt, or by PPT, or by single-shot exemption.

[Munk]

As a general rule...no, you may not ship handgun frames into CA...some exemptions do exist (thompson pistol frames for instance)...the catch being 80% frames are not "firearms" yet...an individual can finish an 80% themselves (as long as it is finished by themselves, and is not being finished for resale, and it is from an existing design).

Thompson pistol frames have the same problem as others, and still need to be purchased with a barrel to be dimensioanlly compliant and roster exempt.

Other than that, you're bang-on about the 80% frames. They're just a slab of metal that's vaguely frame-shaped. They don't count as a frame yet, and thereby don't trigger any of the laws in question about transfer and any other shenanigans.

There's a few other roster shenanigans that i'm unfortunately not as well versed on. Sorry.

You may "bring them in" during a move (except AW pistols and high-cap mags), but you cannot buy non-Rostered handguns unless you are exempt, or by PPT, or by single-shot exemption.

Generaly you want to listen to this guy, he's absolutely right as it pertains to full pistol frames.



....shenanigans

[pk308]

Thanks for the info guys. If I am understanding this correctly, I can buy an 80% frame, complete it myself, and use it/keep it without any issue in CA. But, that only applies to 80% complete frames. Does that sound right?