Tactical Reload Debate

[rudeboy3]

excellent point sir,

a buddy of mine is a LEO and he was trained to never shoot until empty. in fact his duty pistols slide dosent even stay open on the last shot on purpose. the first thing i said was "are you gonna really count your shots when your being shot at?"

also when in a fire fight you tend to shoot alot more then you think you did. you see it all the time where the LEO makes his statement that he took two shots at the suspect. and they review the dash cam to see him shoot a full magazine.

Are you sure about that?So your saying he removed his slide stop on purpose?

[himurax13]

It all really depends on the situation and how you plan on dealing with the threat. If you have sufficient cover and time, then I would go for the tac reload. However, you need to make sure that you are aware of where the threat is and if they make any movements. You can then use the full magazine for suppressive fire to allow time for your escape, or to keep the threat's head down so you can move to a position with a better angle or cover. It never hurts to have that extra round or 2, especially when the SHTF.

[JTROKS]

Someone actually have 5 mags for CCW?

[OneSevenDeuce]

CCW? Tac reloads are mostly used for military applications I would guess.

[l8apex]

Nope, I shoot to slide lock & SR or RR. The TR is a solution searching for a problem as David Armstrong puts it.

The Myth of The Tactical Reload

[OneSevenDeuce]

Nope, I shoot to slide lock. The TR is a solution searching for a problem as David Armstrong puts it.

The Myth of The Tactical Reload

The article prefaces by saying that it is referring to situations outside of "the military". The OP didn't specify if he was asking the question based on being in a combat situation or being in a civilian role. So to say it's a solution looking for a problem is a little off base I think. It is a military solution to a military problem. If you are a civilian then I don't know, maybe it isn't important.

[Gryff]

I would only perform a tactical reload if there was a lull in the fight, and I was clearly behind cover. If there were any question of where the bad guy was, though, I would not willingly unload my gun.

[JohnnyCrash]

I voted No.

As a keyboard jockey who has never been in a fire-fight (and hopefully never will be in one), I imagine I would NOT have the presence of mind to do a tac reload anyway

That said, the only lull in the fight I might consider a tac reload for is if I downed the bad guy and I had cover and I wasn't sure if he was truly incapacitated/disarmed/neutralized or had more friends on the way shortly.

If you have cover you'll have to keep peeking out to see where the bad guy is while you fumble around with a tricky tac reload. Or not look at all while performing a tac reload... in which case the "lull" might actually be the guy moving to a lateral or rear spot to bypass your cover.

The military guys here have helped me see the folly of a tac reload in this kind of scenario. I'll trust them

[Untamed1972]

what practical pistol match was this? partly why ive brought this question up is i went to my first pistol match last saturday and bassically everyone was doing tactical reloads in order to win the "game", bassically anytime they were on the move theyd drop the mag in the pistol and put a full one in so then at the next little engagment they will have a full one and bassically never have to reload in a sense. and if i was faced with 25 bad guys in such close qaurters im not going unload my weapon.

If you've been involved in an exchange of gunfire and now find yourself with some cover, why wouldn't you reload while you had the chance? Do you really wanna make your next move from behind your cover (either to flee the area or advance on the threat) fire a couple of rounds and run dry and now find yourself having to reload in the open? I sure as heck dont. If you're gonna move from cover then you want as many rounds in the gun as you can get.

[crash972]

My son & I train shooting multi. targets that are marked & at varying distances while moving. The spotter calls the target & placement. Then we throw in a tactical once in a while.


It is a whole lot of fun.

Except when my daughter comes out and smokes us.

[Grayblue]

Nope, I shoot to slide lock & SR or RR. The TR is a solution searching for a problem as David Armstrong puts it.

The Myth of The Tactical Reload

Tactical reload is topping off the magazine when feasible. By that definition, his "retention reload" is also a tactical reload. He is only criticizing one method of tactical reload. He is not denouncing the concept of keeping a fully loaded gun when situation allows.

Besides, he is contradicting him self with one argument he made against tactical reload. He stated that there is no way for a operator to know if the situation is a lull in a gun fight. Same goes for his "retention reload," but he is endorsing that.

Also, there is a disadvantage to "retention reload" to "tactical reload" as defined in his article:

He mentioned that tactical reload can be fumbled. Even with that possibility, I personally consider it still superior to his "retention reload." Here is why. If its during a lull of a fight, then fumble does not really matter. If the lull is broken by sudden emergence of opponent, tactical reload gives the operator to just shoot the gun if the low ammo magazine is still in the magazine well while the operator is getting the full magazine out of a pouch. "Retention reload" does not give that option because the first action is to pull the magazine out before full magazine is retrived from a pouch. Also, with "tactical reload," if the low ammo magazine has been ejected out, the operator can immediately switch to a speed reload, just ditching the low ammo magazine and inserting the full magazine that is already in hand. Same goes for "retention reload." But, tactical reload already has a hand with full magazine prepositioned near the mag well making the probability of faster completion significantly higher.

His "retention reload" does not give any of those options. The operator is in the process of getting a full mag out from a magazine pouch after the low ammo magazine is stowed, holding a gun with single round in the chamber. That makes the operator even more vulnerable to sudden emergence of oppopnent.

"Tactical reload" may take same or even longer time than "retention reload" when you measure the whole process. But, the amount of time the gun spends without a magazine is significantly shorter than "retention reload."

But, "retention reload" would make more sense in some situations. Some rifles have much larger and heavier magazines than pistols. And, it's hard for one hand to juggle two if them at once.

[Grayblue]

The article prefaces by saying that it is referring to situations outside of "the military". The OP didn't specify if he was asking the question based on being in a combat situation or being in a civilian role. So to say it's a solution looking for a problem is a little off base I think. It is a military solution to a military problem. If you are a civilian then I don't know, maybe it isn't important.

It's not something unique to military, nor is the problem unique to military.

Civilian, either in self defense or law enforcement can encounter this problem mostly because their pistol, the weapon they usually end up fighting with, has limited capacity.

Let's say you fired off about 6 shots from a 1911 to stop a robber. You have to make a choice between dealing with a potential secondary threat with 1~2 shots or choose to fill the gun to 7~8 shot risking a secondary threat emerging during the loading process. Risk of later can get lowered by cover and distance from potential threat emerge point.

[l8apex]

He mentioned that tactical reload can be fumbled. Even with that possibility, I personally consider it still superior to his "retention reload." Here is why. If its during a lull of a fight, then fumble does not really matter. If the lull is broken by sudden emergence of opponent, tactical reload gives the operator to just shoot the gun if the low ammo magazine is still in the magazine well while the operator is getting the full magazine out of a pouch. "Retention reload" does not give that option because the first action is to pull the magazine out before full magazine is retrived from a pouch. Also, with "tactical reload," if the low ammo magazine has been ejected out, the operator can immediately switch to a speed reload, just ditching the low ammo magazine and inserting the full magazine that is already in hand. Same goes for "retention reload." But, tactical reload already has a hand with full magazine prepositioned near the mag well making the probability of faster completion significantly higher.

His "retention reload" does not give any of those options. The operator is in the process of getting a full mag out from a magazine pouch after the low ammo magazine is stowed, holding a gun with single round in the chamber. That makes the operator even more vulnerable to sudden emergence of oppopnent.

"Tactical reload" may take same or even longer time than "retention reload" when you measure the whole process. But, the amount of time the gun spends without a magazine is significantly shorter than "retention reload."

But, "retention reload" would make more sense in some situations. Some rifles have much larger and heavier magazines than pistols. And, it's hard for one hand to juggle two if them at once.

I see your points and some are valid [semantics], however I've seen the TR in training and under live fire flubbed more times than not. Under minimal stress and heavy stress I've seen soldiers, students & LEO insert the same magazine they just ejected. I'm sure someone will mention they had bad training. Really? Some of these guys send more rounds down range in month to what some people shoot in a lifetime. Everything can be practiced to perfection in a controlled environment, when the SHTF or stress is introduced into the picture, simple things are complicated immensely.

The real problem is figuring out when there is a 'lull' in the fight? Are you going to ask the BG for a quick tea break?

YMMV as your training is probably different than mine. With that said, I completely agree with David Armstrong, although I had a different position on the subject in the past. Tactics progress and change, the real challenge is knowing what to focus your training time on so when it is go time, you don't end up eating lead- for me the TR isn't worth it.

[PistolS&W]

holy moly, you start a shooting incident with 5 mags? who carries that many mags?

SHTF scenario is bassically the only time id be carrying this setup. but also at the pistol competition i went to you have to have a minimum of 5 mags to even be competetive.

[PistolS&W]

Are you sure about that?So your saying he removed his slide stop on purpose?

no it the slide stop is there and visually looks fine but ive shot his gun a few times and seen him shoot it many times and not once has it ever stayed open on the last shot. and he always blamed it on his thumb placement but i know i was no where near the slide stop when i shot it.

then his buddy/co-worker who carries the exact same HK p2000 as his duty weapon went shooting with us and i made up a drill that made you shoot till empty and have to reload a few times and his gun never once stayed open on the last shot either.