Help an 07FFL get AR Pistols into CA

[MasterYong]

OK. Suppose I know an 07FFL that has recently discovered that some FFLs in CA are selling items such as AR and AK pistols legally. Suppose this FFL wants to know how they can do this legally in their own little part of CA.

This FFL already sells Cali-compliant ARs, Saigas, and other such wonderful toys, so they understand that certain hoops have to be jumped through in order to do this stuff legally. They are willing to work for it. What I'm trying to do is help this FFL figure out how they can sell AR pistols in their store.

I've done a lot of reading on CalGuns, and it looks like 99% of the threads deal with individuals trying to figure out how they can build their own AR pistols- i.e. get a pistol lower, how the single-shot exemption works, etc.

If an 07FFL in CA has a lower receiver that hasn't been sold, can they install a bullet button and a single-shot sled and DROS any old lower as a pistol lower? Does it have to somehow enter CA "as a pistol lower"? I noticed that Spike's sells "pistol lowers"...

I looked for an all-around "guide" and couldn't really find one. I could have missed something obvious though.

Would it help if this FFL also had the correct permits to sell assault weapons to CA LEOs?

So, CalGunners! Please put your collective heads together and help me figure out how this FFL can sell AR pistols and/or pistol lowers in their shop! If successful, we'll be helping all CA gun owners by increasing the number of "scary" guns in CA, thereby collectively aiding in the desensitization of the scared anti-gun masses!

NOTE: I'm pretty sure this is a hashed-out, black-and-white "there is a legal way to do this" situation, so while I appreciate everyone's willingness to help, please try not to toss about misinformation or hearsay in this thread: I know there are enough old-school veteran members out there that really know these laws and can help me explain them to the FFL.

ANY INPUT THAT CAN BE PROVIDED IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

[BONECUTTER]

Unless the buying party is exempt (LEO,ect)

The AR/AK pistol must come into CA complete with a 6+ inch BBL and a sled to be single shot exempt to the roster. Stripped and complete lowers can be made into pistols legally on the federal side but not the CA side.

An 07 here can build them complete that way as well. The only other way for average joes to get stripped receivers DROS as pistols is via PPT.

[MasterYong]

When you say an 07 can build them here as well, do you mean they could take a stripped lower that might have otherwise been sold as a rifle lower (but wasn't yet), put in a sled and bb, install lpk, install buffer assembly, install an upper, and dros it to a regular Joe like me as a single-shot? (it could then be converted to 10 rds fixed by the customer, yes?)?

Do I have that right? Or does the lower they start with need to be a "pistol" lower?

[BONECUTTER]

When you say an 07 can build them here as well, do you mean they could take a stripped lower that might have otherwise been sold as a rifle lower (but wasn't yet), put in a sled and bb, install lpk, install buffer assembly, install an upper, and drosera it to a regular Joe like me as a single-shot? (it could then be converted to 10 rds fixed by the customer, yes?)?

Do I have that right? Or does the lower they start with need to be a "pistol" lower?

Correct. They can take a stripped (virgin) lower....even a complete one as long as it has never had a barreled upper attached and make it a pistol. I don't work for an 07 but I'm pretty sure they submit something to the ATF first before doing it. Last I heard it wasn't a big deal.

[gunsmithcats]

U mean it could have the upper attached but NEVER A BUTTSTOCK

[MasterYong]

U mean it could have the upper attached but NEVER A BUTTSTOCK

I figured that's what he meant, since a barreled upper would include a pistol upper. Can't have had a buttstock attached. Got it.

[BONECUTTER]

U mean it could have the upper attached but NEVER A BUTTSTOCK

No I meant an upper. A complete lower even with a buttstock is not a rifle according to the ATF and can legally be made into a pistol if a barreled upper has never been attached. Having a buttstock on a complete lower does not make it a rifle. This is backed by an ATF letter.

[Valkyriearms]

It would have to have a buttstock and a barreled upper to make it a rifle. If just having an upper attached to a lower would make it a rifle than everyone making AR pistols would be in possesion of SBR's. I don't see why you couldn't build a stripped lower into a pistol and then register it as a single shot pistol. When you do the DROS on a lower it doesn't change the status in the ATF's eyes. The lower still has to be logged out of the books as a receiver since thats the way it was sold. Our inspector told us you can not log it out as a rifle or pistol if it left the shop as a receiver. So how does the DOJ turn a receiver into a rifle or pistol? I'm not saying you should or should not do this, it is up to your discretion.

[NiteQwill]

It would have to have a buttstock and a barreled upper to make it a rifle. If just having an upper attached to a lower would make it a rifle than everyone making AR pistols would be in possesion of SBR's. I don't see why you couldn't build a stripped lower into a pistol and then register it as a single shot pistol. When you do the DROS on a lower it doesn't change the status in the ATF's eyes. The lower still has to be logged out of the books as a receiver since thats the way it was sold. Our inspector told us you can not log it out as a rifle or pistol if it left the shop as a receiver. So how does the DOJ turn a receiver into a rifle or pistol? I'm not saying you should or should not do this, it is up to your discretion.

Remember, both California AND Federal laws must be followed. The 4473 can list a receiver as handgun/long gun/other while a Cali DROS must be marked as long arm or pistol (there is no other). A person (non-leo) in California cannot DROS a virgin lower then decide to create a pistol, that would be creating an SBR.

I suggest you read these threads before continuing...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245346

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=115364

[Blackhawk556]

Prk arms in Fresno

Give them a call they sell the nicest things in town

[Valkyriearms]

So are we assuming that doing a long gun DROS on a receiver automatically turns it into a long gun instead of a title one firearm or is there a law that states this? If there is such a law could someone please post a link.

[MasterYong]

Thanks for the links niteqwil... But I've read those threads. They're still written in regards to a situation where an individual (non-FFL) builds their own AR-pistol.

An individual has to use either an 80% lower or a pistol lower that was ppt to them. But is there a way that an 07FFL can DROS an AR as a pistol? Sounds like he couldn't DROS a stripped lower as a pistol, but could he build a stripped lower into a pistol and then DROS it to a non-LEO as a handgun? Isn't that the whole point of the "single shot exemption"' is that it allows the dealer to DROS a non-rostered handgun? Isn't that how PRK Arms gets away with selling those mini-Mac pistols?

[wildhawker]

07 FFL will have to comply with all aspects of firearms manufacturing, including paying the appropriate excise taxes (unless exempted), but may build California-compliant single-shot AR & AK pistols for sale within the state to anyone 21 and older and not otherwise prohibited. There's a difference between a bona fide FFL07 business manufacturing handguns intended for sale and personally assembling a handgun for personal use.

I would caution that while there isn't much we can discuss publicly yet, we will have some more information on other issues raised in this thread soon.

[SJgunguy24]

It would have to have a buttstock and a barreled upper to make it a rifle. If just having an upper attached to a lower would make it a rifle than everyone making AR pistols would be in possesion of SBR's. I don't see why you couldn't build a stripped lower into a pistol and then register it as a single shot pistol. When you do the DROS on a lower it doesn't change the status in the ATF's eyes. The lower still has to be logged out of the books as a receiver since thats the way it was sold. Our inspector told us you can not log it out as a rifle or pistol if it left the shop as a receiver. So how does the DOJ turn a receiver into a rifle or pistol? I'm not saying you should or should not do this, it is up to your discretion.

So are we assuming that doing a long gun DROS on a receiver automatically turns it into a long gun instead of a title one firearm or is there a law that states this? If there is such a law could someone please post a link.

There is only 2 options on the DROS, handgun and longarm. If you type in handgun it must be rostered or there must be an exemption for a non rostered handgun.

Any 07 can build a pistol on a virgin receiver, but that must be marked per ATF regs with the city and state of the manufacturer and a serial number. There also needs to be a Federal Excise Tax paid by the 07FFL of 11% unless that firearm is for LEO purchase.

I build them all the time.

[MasterYong]

When you folks say "virgin receiver" do you mean one that has never been built into a longgun or pistol, or do you mean one that is "80%" i.e. not really finished yet?