Cal Roster: why no model numbers?

[advocatusdiaboli]

This is addressed to the senior members who are attorneys: why doesn't the Cal Roster use the manufacturer's model numbers? It's damn hard to figure out which version of a particular pistol they are referring to most of the time while the manufacturer's part number would remove all doubt and uncertainty. And it doesn't change once tested so why is it not used?

Frankly, I almost think this whole roster idea is really just a layer of bureaucracy intended to deter people from owning handguns. But maybe my tin-foil hat is too tight?

[Librarian]

Frankly, I almost think this whole roster idea is really just a layer of bureaucracy intended to deter people from owning handguns. But maybe my tin-foil hat is too tight?

Your hat seems to fit just fine - that's almost certainly the motivation.

[Saym14]

your tin foil is receiving the signals loud and clear.

[ALSystems]

I agree that the primary purpose of the roster is to deter people from buying handguns. The reason manufacturer model are not listed is to make this rule deliberately unclear. Most CA gun laws are written in such a way you are never quite sure what they actually mean.

[advocatusdiaboli]

I know the the professionals in charge have their hit lists, but I hope this is one of the first instruments of this corrupt anti-Second Amendment regime to be challenged and toppled if SCOTUS rules for McDonald and against the City of Chicago. The 10-round limit should be right behind on it's way to the scrap heap of misguided laws like the Prohibition amendment that never stopped alcohol use and made criminals of ordinary citizens.

[BananaTyrant]

I know the the professionals in charge have their hit lists, but I hope this is one of the first instruments of this corrupt anti-Second Amendment regime to be challenged and toppled if SCOTUS rules for McDonald and against the City of Chicago. The 10-round limit should be right behind on it's way to the scrap heap of misguided laws like the Prohibition amendment that never stopped alcohol use and made criminals of ordinary citizens.

My understanding is there's already a lawsuit in place just waiting for the ruling on MacDonald before commencing. I can't wait for the end of June. I even have it marked on the calendar at work, which hangs in the break room for all to see.

[Mute]

You do realize that this law exist with no other purpose than to harass law-abiding gunowners right?

[shooting4life]

They use the terminology they do to describe the guns on the list to make it as confusing as possible.

[elSquid]

This is addressed to the senior members who are attorneys: why doesn't the Cal Roster use the manufacturer's model numbers? It's damn hard to figure out which version of a particular pistol they are referring to most of the time while the manufacturer's part number would remove all doubt and uncertainty. And it doesn't change once tested so why is it not used?

This may not be the DOJ's fault ( ). Some manufacturers list SKUs, some don't.

Colt:

01091 M1991A1 Ser 80 / Stainless Steel (matte) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/11/2011
01980XSE / Carbon Steel (blue) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/9/2011
01991 M1991A1 Ser 80 / Steel (matte blue) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/11/2011

Springfield Armory does an excellent job as well:

XD9104 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9mm 3/21/2011
XD9109 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 3/21/2011
XD9113 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .357 SIG 3/26/2011
XD9121 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" 9mm 1/23/2011

Other manufacturers may or may not be as thorough.

-- Michael

[Librarian]

This may not be the DOJ's fault ( ). Some manufacturers list SKUs, some don't.

Colt:

01091 M1991A1 Ser 80 / Stainless Steel (matte) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/11/2011
01980XSE / Carbon Steel (blue) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/9/2011
01991 M1991A1 Ser 80 / Steel (matte blue) Pistol 5" .45 ACP 3/11/2011

Springfield Armory does an excellent job as well:

XD9104 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.08" 9mm 3/21/2011
XD9109 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .40 S&W 3/21/2011
XD9113 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" .357 SIG 3/26/2011
XD9121 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.08" 9mm 1/23/2011

Other manufacturers may or may not be as thorough.

-- Michael

SA is reasonably good, but they introduce a bit of confusion - often the boxes of handgun/magazine(s)/tchotzkes have [SKU]P, and that trailing "P" looks like a different item than the gun on the Roster.

[kf6tac]

It's damn hard to figure out which version of a particular pistol they are referring to most of the time while the manufacturer's part number would remove all doubt and uncertainty.

That's my cynical answer as to why they do it that way.

[advocatusdiaboli]

This may not be the DOJ's fault ( ). Some manufacturers list SKUs, some don't.

I understand your point, but the DOJ could simply require exact model numbers when the gun is submitted for testing, no? I mean really how hard is that. I am sure there is a raft of paperwork involved in the submission for the $10,000 per pistol model. every manufacturer has a BOM and model number--I am certain of it.

I recently bought a Sig Sauer P232 from out of state (I refuse to support CA with my taxes for firearm purchases any more and buy everything out of state--Arizona when possible) i.e. by exact model 232-380-SSS, but the roster didn't show the model number. DOJ could have easily mentioned that number to remove any doubt--but they didn't so I had to go by description and double and triple check.

[elSquid]

I understand your point, but the DOJ could simply require exact model numbers when the gun is submitted for testing, no? I mean really how hard is that. I am sure there is a raft of paperwork involved in the submission for the $10,000 per pistol model. every manufacturer has a BOM and model number--I am certain of it.

What about smaller manufacturers, like Wilson Combat? Les Baer?

I recently bought a Sig Sauer P232 from out of state (I refuse to support CA with my taxes for firearm purchases any more and buy everything out of state--Arizona when possible) i.e. by exact model 232-380-SSS, but the roster didn't show the model number. DOJ could have easily mentioned that number to remove any doubt--but they didn't so I had to go by description and double and triple check.

SigSauer explicitly identifies CA legal pistols in their online catalog:

http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=10&productid=292

Click on the "specification" tag.

Item Number 232-380-SSS
Caliber .380ACP
Action Type DA/SA
Trigger Pull DA 10.0 lbs
Trigger Pull SA 4.4 lbs
Overall Length 6.6 in
Overall Height 4.7 in
Overall Width 1.3 in
Barrel Length 3.6 in
Sight Radius 4.8 in
Weight w/Mag 23.6 oz
Mag Capacity 7 Rounds
Sights Night Sights
Grips Rubber Hogue Grips
Frame Finish Stainless
Slide Finish Stainless
Accessory Rail No
Options Smooth Contours and Rounded, Snag-free Edges
MSRP $900.00
CA Compliant Yes
MA Compliant No

It's not up to DOJ to make the pistol easier to buy, when it's quite doable by the manufacturers...



-- Michael

[cal_gunner]

Per Cal Roster:

Smith & Wesson 520 / Steel, Titanium, Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 11/16/2019

Expires in 2019? Is that a Typo?

Everything Else Expires in 2010 or 2011.

[Librarian]

I am sure there is a raft of paperwork involved in the submission for the $10,000 per pistol model.

$10K? From where does that number come?

California Code of Regulations (Chapter 5 on this page) says

ARTICLE 10.
4072. FEES FOR THE ROSTER OF CERTIFIED HANDGUNS
(a) Pursuant to subdivision (b) of Penal Code s 12131, the DOJ shall recover the full costs of creating and maintaining the Roster of Certified Handguns by collecting fees from manufacturers/importers of or other parties responsible for handgun models that are listed on the Roster of Certified Handguns.

(b) Standard Fees:
(1) Initial annual listing fee: $200 for each model
(2) Annual maintenance fee for listing: $200 for each model

(c) Annual maintenance fees are non-refundable. There is no refund or rebate for discontinuation prior to completion of a full year's listing on the Roster.

That's in addition to three copies of each handgun, the ammo for the testing, and whatever administrative overhead the manufacturer incurs to dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

I recently bought a Sig Sauer P232 from out of state (I refuse to support CA with my taxes for firearm purchases any more and buy everything out of state--Arizona when possible) i.e. by exact model 232-380-SSS, but the roster didn't show the model number.

You do recall that the Franchise Tax Board expects you to pay the tax anyway, right?