45 +P

[GunLover]

I guess I will buy a box of P+ and standard in 185gr and see which I can handle better in recoil and follow up shots ect. The g36 barrel lenght is 3.78 inches.

[FiveSeven]

Thank you captain obvious. I didn't think I would need to spell it all out, but I guess I do to avoid getting "schooled".

Yes, I know .45 is larger in diameter than the 10mm. The .45 is 11.43mm or so compared to the 10mm. The whole point I was trying to make was that the 10mm is also much more powerful in terms of kinetic energy and penetration which leaves the .45 ACP in the dust in standard barrel lengths or shorter barrels.

They're both handgun cartridges, with that in mind they are pretty much equal in self defense against humans, not bears.
.45 can penetrate as deep as 17 +" inside the human body and that is plenty enough but it does so with larger diameter wound channel.
The most powerful 10mm load out there does not inflict rifle like wounds so even if it penetrates a little more, is it worth all that extra recoil and muzzle blast?

Once again something VERY obvious. Handgun cartridge takes someone out of the gunfight in one of the two ways. Central nervous system disabled which is instantaneous or make enough holes where there's enough blood loss and body goes into a shock (less preferred option in life or death situation). That is where larger diameter bullet has an advantage.

With all that said, I have nothing against any particular handgun caliber. I believe training and your mindset is much more important in a self defense scenario.

[bigmark408]

Black talon or Ranger.

[pyromensch]

with all the "caliber" and other info going around, and the guy just asked "+p, or not", you could also argue 357 mag, in a remington hollowpoint. but that does not answer his question. for HD go with the +p, it most likely would be a "ONE TIME" thing, and the most power, at the largest "caliber", would be the best

[FieldsofFire]

As another member mentioned, I would go with +P for the short barreled guns to make up for the lost velocity. Standard loads out of a short barrel just don't reach speeds fast enough to produce optimal expansion/results. I would just go with +P for all your .45 guns that you intend on using for personal protection. It would be great for the short barreled guns and you'd have even more punch out of your longer barreled guns.

The Speer GDHP 200gr. +P stuff packs a punch.

[Barkoff]

+1. 230gr factory ammo marketed as defensive ammo. Not worth the legal worries making my own. The numbers with standard pressure ammo will give you more than enough penetration.

Are you guys shooting ball or HP?

I kind of had the feeling a lot of folks were moving towards the 200 grains.

[jumpthestack]

Bear in mind, if you normally shoot standard pressure ammo for practice, and you use +P ammo for defense, the recoil and muzzle rise will feel different from how it normally feels during practice, thus possibly hindering your accuracy. I would say if you're going to use +P then you should shoot a lot of +P to make sure you're used to it. Otherwise stick with standard pressure.

[FiveSeven]

Bear in mind, if you normally shoot standard pressure ammo for practice, and you use +P ammo for defense, the recoil and muzzle rise will feel different from how it normally feels during practice, thus possibly hindering your accuracy. I would say if you're going to use +P then you should shoot a lot of +P to make sure you're used to it. Otherwise stick with standard pressure.

Not entirely true. During life or death situation people usually don't feel all those factors. Generally you are so focused on the threat itself that everything else does not register with the brain. It's one of those survival instincts were built with, that is why training is so important, the mindset goes in to auto mode. That is if there's that info and motor skills are there to begin with and honed enough.
For range practice it would not hurt to shoot +P here and there but some calibers make it more, shall I say not so much fun to shoot in a compact frame handgun even in standard loads. One of the reason why I like .45ACP, very manageable big caliber even in a small gun.

Once again, as some people don't think is important. Short barrels were not designed with "standard" pressure .45ACP. If you rely on short barrel .45 for personal protection get +P ammo, preferably in a lighter gr as well.

[GunLover]

I was thinking about gold dot because of the low price but then i seen this

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_200grGDHP.htm

I guess I will order some 185gr double tapp ammunition to try out.

[FiveSeven]

Order as much as you can afford before the new law takes affect.
Midway USA is where I get most of my ammo.

[-hanko]

... Once again, as some people don't think is important. Short barrels were not designed with "standard" pressure .45ACP.

If not designed for 'standard' pressure .45acp, what were the Combat Commander, Commander, and Officers (both steel and lightweight) designed for??

As another poster posted...practice with the same ammo you keep in the weapon for hd/sd.

-hanko

[FiveSeven]

If not designed for 'standard' pressure .45acp, what were the Combat Commander, Commander, and Officers (both steel and lightweight) designed for??

As another poster posted...practice with the same ammo you keep in the weapon for hd/sd.

-hanko

Just because someone decided to make shorter/smaller gun that is based on the original design does not mean it won't fire or there was a whole lot of research or ballistic science data was involved in it...... Just like 5.6mm was designed and is the most affective in 19 +" barrel. In 11" barrel AR pistol that round will function just fine but there's a world of a difference when it comes to ballistics.
As to practice with what you intend to use for SD, If it works for you and you have enough $ for regular practice then knock yourself out, it wont hurt. But it's not necessary, if you know it functions flawlessly in your gun than its all that matters.

[Army GI]

I guess I will buy a box of P+ and standard in 185gr and see which I can handle better in recoil and follow up shots ect. The g36 barrel lenght is 3.78 inches.

Try the 230gr first, you will be very disappointed with 185gr penetration. The kinetic energy figures and velocity look impressive on paper, but 185gr 45 bullets are quite shallow penetrators.

They can still kill of course, but 200+ gr is better.

[FiveSeven]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=313054

.45 ACP Corbon 185 gr +P Barnes XPB JHP; ave vel=1097 fps (1911); gel cal=9.0cm@576fps
BG: pen=16.8" RD=0.65", RL=0.51", RW=185.3gr
4LD: pen=16.5", RD=0.66", RL=0.51", RW=185.9gr

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/45_Auto_185gr_Corbon_Box.html

[Army GI]

They're both handgun cartridges, with that in mind they are pretty much equal in self defense against humans, not bears.
.45 can penetrate as deep as 17 +" inside the human body and that is plenty enough but it does so with larger diameter wound channel.
The most powerful 10mm load out there does not inflict rifle like wounds so even if it penetrates a little more, is it worth all that extra recoil and muzzle blast?

Once again something VERY obvious. Handgun cartridge takes someone out of the gunfight in one of the two ways. Central nervous system disabled which is instantaneous or make enough holes where there's enough blood loss and body goes into a shock (less preferred option in life or death situation). That is where larger diameter bullet has an advantage.

With all that said, I have nothing against any particular handgun caliber. I believe training and your mindset is much more important in a self defense scenario.

Don't mind me, I'm just grumpy. Sorry for the terse reply, I was being a douche.

A couple of things though:

*Where did you get your figures for handgun penetration? Ballistics gel? Ballistics gel is great, but 17" is not realistic for a human body at all. You have more than just flesh, you got bone, ligaments, organs, membranes, muscles, and all that other stuff. Handgun bullets penetrate a lot less in actual human bodies.

*I agree, 100% 10mm penetrates only a little more than the .45 but vastly increases muzzle blast and recoil. Totally not worth it. I think it's a silly round that defeats the whole point of auto pistols which is to have a weapon that you can fire rapidly with little recoil and fast follow up shots. It's still a fun round to dink around with though if you're a reloader. But I would never use it as a self defense round. I've recently become a 9mm guy

*Again, I agree. It's all about shot placement, how fast you can hit him, and how many times you can hit him. I'd rather be able to get 2 in the chest and one in the head with a .380 than completely miss all 6 shots with a .44 magnum.