Stupid question....Again...

[ap3572001]

I know I brought this up before...... But I am talking to some of my parters at work about this.

Is DROS a registration ? Or a form of registration ???

[boredin818]

I would say neither. It's basically a receipt that the gun was sold to you... once approved by the DOJ.

[ap3572001]

I would say neither. It's basically a receipt that the gun was sold to you... once approved by the DOJ.

Ok. So what is HANDGUN REGISTRATION? A friend a south Ca helped out a woman and sold Her late husbands rifles and few handguns to a shop. The shop asked Him for His CDL and finger print.
And treated Him as a seller. As if He was selling His guns.

I wonder if there is a website where CA DROS system and Registration is explained in detail.

[Once A Marine]

Here's a start: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php

[ap3572001]

Thanks. I know DOJ site.

I just don't get how someone can sell to a gunshop or PPT a handgun that is not DROS to them ?

[Once A Marine]

The pistol isn't registered. A DROS is just that - Dealer Record of Sale. The dealers have inventory and other records they must keep up to date and available for inspection by DOJ. Their licenses grant them the ability to buy weapons differently than the general public.

[dilligaffrn]

DROS for hand gun associates you to a specific make, model and ser number of that handgun (one HG per DROS) and that info is transmitted to the CA DOJ (defacto registration)

DROS for a long gun is just a background check (not registered)

both require a TEN 24hr period "cool off" unless exempt

the Fed form has the details of the firearms but is retained by the dealer (and is subject to audit)

[SJgunguy24]

From what I gather from going through all of the B.S. regulations we have to follow. A handgun is registered when DROS for a handgun is filed. They check off your HSC or exemption, your hands on safety check, your thumbprint and CAdl/id and proof of residency requirements.

If I buy a few C&R handguns out of state I have 5 days to file the paperwork. The same goes for new residents bringing their handguns with them. AP, that case maybe the guy was acting under power of attorney and can legally sell the guns for her. Maybe she transferred the guns to him and he sold them?

[ap3572001]

Ok. Many times , I hear of some else ( other than the DROS owner) puts a handgun on consingment at the store of sells it to shop or even PPT's it to the new owner at gunshop.

And I never hear problems with that. Doesn't anyone see that the person selling/transfering the handgun is not the owner????

[littlejake]

One can start a big argument over whether the DROS system is registration. Some call it de facto registration. I'm sure this thread will open that can of worms again.

Here's a little history... DROS means Dealer Report of Sale.

It started in CA in 1954 and applied only to handguns.

Up until 1991, a CA resident could sell a handgun to another resident without going through a CA dealer or the DROS process.

There are still many handguns out in circulation that were transferred prior to 1991 without DROS; and it is not mandated that they be registered. So, we do not have a true registration system (yet!)

Since 1991, Handgun PPTs must process through a CA dealer with DROS. Those who move into the state with handguns are required to report them on a DOJ form. When a C&R holder buys a handgun out of state and brings it into the state; they must also file a form. One could say this is an attempt at registration... still not absolute registration.

How can someone PPT a handgun through a dealer not DROS'ed to them... it is not likely to be flagged as long as the gun does not come up as stolen... then they will go after the seller. If the gun was not made before 1991; then there could be a backlash on the question of how did the seller come to possess the gun without it being in the DROS database.

I have owned handguns in CA since 1969; and as a matter of practice, I have never sold a handgun to a private party without using a dealer. Nor would I sell guns for another person.

[Once A Marine]

To AP's question, the seller of the firearm does not need to show proof of ownership/registration records in order to sell the firearm. The system works in vetting the purchaser, and I believe the seller only if the purchaser fails the background check.

[Decoligny]

Ok. Many times , I hear of some else ( other than the DROS owner) puts a handgun on consingment at the store of sells it to shop or even PPT's it to the new owner at gunshop.

And I never hear problems with that. Doesn't anyone see that the person selling/transfering the handgun is not the owner????

Scenario: John (CA resident) buys a gun at his local gun store. He DROSs it and CA DOJ now knows that John is the proud owner of firearm X.

John moves out of CA, to a state where face to face sale of a handgun is legal and no registration is required. He sells firearm X to Bill. John never reported to CA DOJ that he is no longer in possession of firearm X.

Bill gives firearm X to Jenny (his girlfriend) as a birthday present.

Jenny breaks up with Bill and puts firearm X up for sale on GunBrokers.com.

Ralph, a California resident, buys the gun, and has it transfered through a CA FFL and goes through the DROS process.

Bill and Ralph now both have firearm X listed as being sold to them. The latest date is on Ralph's info, so he is the defacto "current registered owner".

If you don't think that CA has handgun registration, just contact the DOJ and request a list of the handguns that you own. Unless you bought the firearm before the DROS system went into effect, or you moved into CA and didn't fill out the new resident firearm import paperwork, they will have a complete list of your handguns, make, model and serial numbers.

[ap3572001]

Thank You all!!!

Simple scenario: John buys a new HK USP at thelocal shop , shoots it and does not like it. Lends it to His friend Rick , asks Him to shoot it too. Rick shoots it . Does not like it either.

John the orignal owner call Rick and asks Him to sell it to teh local shop ( where rick shoots every weekend)

Rick sells John's HK to that shop.

The owner of the shop gets all Rick's info. ( NOT JOHN'S) and gives Rick the money to give to John.

Did Rick got an HK removed form the record of handguns that He has? How could He , it was never there?

Did John remove it form His name?

Why was not Rick ever questioned by ANYONE about the fact that he was selling John's HK ?

[Once A Marine]

Again, it's not a registration system per se, where you are issued credentials for each gun you own. The tracking is based on the purchase transaction, and those records are kept. This allows (or hypothetically allows) a criminal investigation to track the path of ownership.

A full registration system would require you to keep and provide records of ownership of the handgun, as well as keep the records current (address changes, modification to pistol, for example) - that is not in effect here.

Why? Because of the 2nd amendment, and as part of American society, the gun owner bears accountability for his firearms. As long as the firearm is sold by you, or your trusted proxy, the records will show the new owner.

[littlejake]

Prior to 1991, if you sold a handgun DROS'ed to you to a dealer, it was in limbo until sold by the dealer. When sold and DROS'ed to a new owner, the paper trail still existed in CAL DOJ; but it was out of your name.

It is always a good idea to NLIP a handgun when you sell it. The NLIP used to be simple form; but DOJ/BOF has made it more complicated.

I did an AFS printout a couple of years ago and found two errors.

1. A Sig P220 that I had put on consignment and taken back -- requiring a second DROS, later PPT'ed through a dealer was still listed to me as it was assigned to me twice and only one instance was removed.
2. A S&W model 67 I bought in 1973 was still listed to me even though I had sold it to a dealer and done an NLIP. The original DROS recorded an incorrect number as the serial number. The clerk took a proof number off the crane as the serial number. I had to send an NLIP with the incorrect number to get it removed.

(A call to DOJ about how to remove the M67 from my name made me feel it was my fault the incorrect number was recorded -- hey, it was 1973!)

As for federal form 4473s -- they stay with the dealer, until the dealer goes out of business, then they must be sent to BATF&E. Many CA dealers have gone out of business since the requirements and hassle of being a dealer have driven them out. In violation of the GCA of 1968 that created the 4473, BATF&E has been building a database from those out of business records... you draw your own conclusions.