Thoughts on Python versus S&W action

[nn3453]

So I shoot S&Ws mostly. I shot my friend's late 80s Python yesterday (I was thinking of buying it from him) and I noticed that the DA action is very different.

I couldn't get it to shoot accurately. By accuracy I mean consistently within a 9 ring of a standard B-16 slow fire target at 25 yards. It grouped fine enough but did not group as good as my factory 686s with no modifications and nowhere near my 625 with a trigger job (that thing is scary accurate and will place shots within the 10 ring if I try hard enough).

I am sure it is me and not the gun since single action shot pretty well and on par with my 686 in DA (though the shots grouped slightly higher on the target in SA compared to DA).

I used to think that Python's have the best triggers. Not so sure anymore. He hasn't shot the gun much so it just sits in the safe and it could be that it is just not broken in. The Python trigger seems to keep getting harder and harder and it seems heavier to me, not lighter. When I'm shooting S&Ws in slow fire I typically index it until trigger is just about to break (unconsciously) and that allows me to place that shot where I am pointing. By the time you recover from recoil the trigger has been pulled through to that point where it breaks again.

Can anyone explain the technical differences between the Python and S&W triggers in DA and how you can shoot one accurately if you are used to S&W triggers?

Thank you.

[tat668]

I can't shoot the Python in DA also, do a lot better with the Trooper and the Smiths.

For me it is the grip geometry and how the angle points.

[El Gato]

Having been, in a previous employment life, a gunsmith specializing in action jobs on revolvers...
the python uses a leaf spring and the action must be perfectly timed to put pressure on the cylnder at the last moment to lock everything up...it takes some finess to do it right... I used to send the extractor and the hand off to have them hard chromed after an action job in order to make the timing last a bit longer....as with stock parts the action will go out of time faster than most people realize... esp. when done right at the edge of being perfectly timed...

the smith uses a coil spring arrangement for the parts ...the smith is more simple in the timing...

both can be made very smooth...
weight of the action (trigger pull weight) is not important to good accuracy (if it is within reason) if you know how to watch the front sight while you press the trigger without moving the gun... smoothness has a big impact on how the not moving the gun thing goes...and a smooth action will feel lighter than it is... the python typically feels smoother than average

all other things being the same...they are different...

they can both be made to be very smooth...and they will feel different to the shooter...
the colt tends to have very accurate barrels...
the smith tends to be easier for most people to shoot well...
a well massaged dan wesson revolver...done right mind you... will have a shorter trigger pull and be smoother than either...

personal preference is what it is mostly about...

[nn3453]

Having been, in a previous employment life, a gunsmith specializing in action jobs on revolvers...
the python uses a leaf spring and the action must be perfectly timed to put pressure on the cylnder at the last moment to lock everything up...it takes some finess to do it right... I used to send the extractor and the hand off to have them hard chromed after an action job in order to make the timing last a bit longer....as with stock parts the action will go out of time faster than most people realize... esp. when done right at the edge of being perfectly timed...

the smith uses a coil spring arrangement for the parts ...the smith is more simple in the timing...

both can be made very smooth...
weight of the action is not important to good accuracy if you know how to watch the front sight while you press the trigger without moving the gun... smoothness has a big impact on how the not moving the gun thing goes...

all other things being the same...they are different...

they can both be made to be very smooth...and they will feel different to the shooter...
the colt tends to have very accurate barrels...
the smith tends to be easier for most people to shoot well...
a well massaged dan wesson revolver...done right mind you... will have a shorter trigger pull and be smoother than either...

personal preference is what it is mostly about...

Thanks for the insight. Recommendation for a colt gunsmith in case I do get it? Most S&W smiths I talked to won't touch a Python it seems.

[BigDogatPlay]

I own and shoot both and as above, the Colt action over the long haul tends to be a little more finicky and can be tougher to maintain. The traditional Colt action used in the Python will never "wear in" like the traditional S&W action. I've owned S&Ws that had never been 'smithed, only fired and well maintained, that eventually wore in to have actions as smooth as warm butter.

I've never encountered a traditional Colt action that did. The later Mark III and Mark V will to some degreee, but are still nothing like an S&W.

[El Gato]

I own and shoot both and as above, the Colt action over the long haul tends to be a little more finicky and can be tougher to maintain. The traditional Colt action used in the Python will never "wear in" like the traditional S&W action. I've owned S&Ws that had never been 'smithed, only fired and well maintained, that eventually wore in to have actions as smooth as warm butter.

I've never encountered a traditional Colt action that did. The later Mark III and Mark V will to some degreee, but are still nothing like an S&W.

+1

as to a Colt Smith... I wuoldn't know now... I do my own but won't touch anyone elses gun anymore... I no longer have an FFL and it is too easy to make a mistake with a file... and you have to file alot to maintain file skills.. .they are perishable...

you might try
cylinder and slide
or
magnaport

a really don't know anyone in California who has the patience... I am sure someone else can chime in here...

there was a colt guy who posted an interesting colt a few months back...looked kinda cool...not my taste but did look nice..
so perhaps there are still some revolver smith's around...

[D.R.E.]

I don't particularly like the stock python action.

However, if you bend the sear of the trigger it makes an incredible difference. I'd put a well tuned colt against anything.

The problem you are describing seems to be that the standard colt "stacks" --- i.e. as you pull the trigger, there is not much pressure at the beginning, but as you continue pulling back, the pressure builds up steadily. The bad thing about this (in my opinion) is what you are seeing --- it hurts accuracy for many people since right when you need the most control (at letoff and ignition) is when the pull is heaviest.

Curving the trigger sear eliminates this problem completely --- the pull is steady all the way through and fairly light right before ignition. In fact I'm more accurate w/ DA on guns I've tuned since the letoff at the final bit is less than you will have w/ SA (or at least is not as abrupt). For those that keep track of such things, this is a classic modification dating back to Tedford.

As a side note, curving the sear will cuts the max pull by 2lbs at the least. And, nicely, I've never had ignition problems (other than on a 41mag python since LP primers are tougher, it seems).


Here's a photo of a stock trigger vs one with a curved sear:




Seperately from this, though, in terms of accuracy: check if your cylinder / barrel is in alignment using a match range rod (brownells has them). If there's the slightest bit of misalignment then you're going to have suck *** accuracy --- at ignition the cylinder is in hard lockup (on a correct colt) so if it's not in alignment w/ the barrel the bullet will slam into the side of it and get deformed as it gets shoved through the oval gap.

So I shoot S&Ws mostly. I shot my friend's late 80s Python yesterday (I was thinking of buying it from him) and I noticed that the DA action is very different.

I couldn't get it to shoot accurately. By accuracy I mean consistently within a 9 ring of a standard B-16 slow fire target at 25 yards. It grouped fine enough but did not group as good as my factory 686s with no modifications and nowhere near my 625 with a trigger job (that thing is scary accurate and will place shots within the 10 ring if I try hard enough).

I am sure it is me and not the gun since single action shot pretty well and on par with my 686 in DA (though the shots grouped slightly higher on the target in SA compared to DA).

I used to think that Python's have the best triggers. Not so sure anymore. He hasn't shot the gun much so it just sits in the safe and it could be that it is just not broken in. The Python trigger seems to keep getting harder and harder and it seems heavier to me, not lighter. When I'm shooting S&Ws in slow fire I typically index it until trigger is just about to break (unconsciously) and that allows me to place that shot where I am pointing. By the time you recover from recoil the trigger has been pulled through to that point where it breaks again.

Can anyone explain the technical differences between the Python and S&W triggers in DA and how you can shoot one accurately if you are used to S&W triggers?

Thank you.

[nn3453]

D.R.E. thanks! Can you recommend a Python gunsmith? Is Frank Glenn still around?

[D.R.E.]

Frank is great & fast. Colt does good work and is pretty fast (and cheap). Grant Cunningham is great, but has a huge wait list.

I can't recommend C&S, unfortunately.

[nn3453]

I ended up buying this 6" Python from my friend.

Getting used to the stacking DA.

Shot this at 25 yd. Pretty pleased with the gun. My second weekend out with it (adjusted elevation after the first two shots).

[9mmepiphany]

i actually prefer the Pythons DA to that of the S&W.

the Colt action is longer, but i liken it to the difference between a S&W J-frame and K-frame.

i had mine tuned by Paul Crow who used to work at the Bill Davis shop in West Sacto, but he's disappeared...just like Jerry Moran

i'm not even sure if Reeves Jungkind is still around...he was the Master of the Pyhton DA...i think the other old masters are dead.

i've heard good things about Grant Cunningham, but like all good pistolsmiths he has a backlog.

please don't let a S&W guy near your Python action. the camming surfaces need to be correctly balanced. almost any competent smith can do a S&W action

[D.R.E.]

Reeves is retired, but still taking work (yeah, I don't get it either). He did two for me this summer.

Frank Glenn does great action jobs: no stacking, fast turn around. He uses the classic Tedford method of curving the sear.

I'd also recommend Colt, though they can be hit or miss.

Grant is great, but the wait list is closed again.

I second the warning: do not let any gunsmith near your colt unless they are known for their work on them. They will f*ck it up, "correcting" symptoms rather than problems.

i actually prefer the Pythons DA to that of the S&W.

the Colt action is longer, but i liken it to the difference between a S&W J-frame and K-frame.

i had mine tuned by Paul Crow who used to work at the Bill Davis shop in West Sacto, but he's disappeared...just like Jerry Moran

i'm not even sure if Reeves Jungkind is still around...he was the Master of the Pyhton DA...i think the other old masters are dead.

i've heard good things about Grant Cunningham, but like all good pistolsmiths he has a backlog.

please don't let a S&W guy near your Python action. the camming surfaces need to be correctly balanced. almost any competent smith can do a S&W action

[den888]

DA on Python is longer, but smoother than an out of the box S&W. A S&W's SA is crisp, but so is the SA of a Python. I have a Python and still have it, but sold off my S&W's (all pre lock from the 80's) last year.

[B Strong]

I'm a Smith wheelgun man from way back, but I have a great appreciation for the Colt Doubles, and have fired all types and owned a few.

I agree with your assessment.

Smith's generally have a better trigger than the Colt's, and a professionally tuned Smith trigger is the best double action trigger you'll find.

[garnok]

I went to the range a few weeks ago with my Python 4", a Dan W 6" and Dan W 4". I shot better with the Dan W's, but the action of the Colt was so silky smooth.