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**Pistolwhipped** · 07-01-2009, 11:29 PM

You have to purchase a registered, by the manufacturer, AR pistol lower. That means the lower has to be deamed a "pistol" with the ATF by the creators. You cannot buy a regular rifle lower and register it as a pistol lower. The reason I go into such detail on that is there are FFLs that dont know that and will let you buy a rifle lower and "try" to register it as a pistol in your name. Will not work and it will cause problems for you and the FFL. People have them and I'm planning on getting one soon too.

**arfan66** · 07-01-2009, 11:52 PM

However, the OP's core question is regarding the legalities of creating an AR pistol from an 80% lower. If i'm not mistaken, this has already been covered. Try the search function.....if I come across the thread I'll edit this post with a link.

See post # 14: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ight=AR+pistol

Bottom line: Yes, you can build an 80% lower but mark/etch/engrave it as a pistol.

**RaymondMillbrae** · 07-02-2009, 3:06 PM

Thanks for everyone who posted a response.

Kudos!

I also found four more threads that shed a bit more light on this matter. (Good stuff).

If I may pull on your ear a few more seconds:

Why does an AR pistol have to have a button?

All other pistols on the CA DOJ list have no magazine button...so why should this custom-made one have it? (There is a llot of legal jargon to read through, and maybe I am just too tired to have seen the answer).

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond

**ke6guj** · 07-02-2009, 3:08 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

Why does an AR pistol have to have a button?

All other pistols on the CA DOJ list have no magazine button...so why should this custom-made one have it? (There is a llot of legal jargon to read through, and maybe I am just too tired to have seen the answer).

because a AR pistol is an AW if it has a detachable magazine outside the pistol grip. None of the handguns on the list have detachable magazines outsidethe pistol grip, so, they don't need a BB.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

***elSquid*** · 07-02-2009, 3:10 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

Why does an AR pistol have to have a button?

All other pistols on the CA DOJ list have no magazine button...so why should this custom-made one have it? (There is a llot of legal jargon to read through, and maybe I am just too tired to have seen the answer).

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php

# A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

1. A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
2. (B) A second handgrip.
3. A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
4. The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

-- Michael

**RaymondMillbrae** · 07-02-2009, 4:05 PM

Thanks again, yall.

This was a very informative thread for me!!

It looks like the ONLY way to have a CA legal, AR pistol, is to have it as a 1-shot shooter.

Bummer!!

For me - it's no use building one if I cannot, LEGALLY, shoot it semi-auto. (It's totally not worth it to get caught, as I own many "toys," and I am also in the high security business).

But my buddy may still go ahead with the build.

Like I said...good info in this thread!!!

Thanks again.

In Christ: Raymond

**ke6guj** · 07-02-2009, 4:19 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

Thanks again, yall.

This was a very informative thread for me!!

It looks like the ONLY way to have a CA legal, AR pistol, is to have it as a 1-shot shooter.

Bummer!!

For me - it's no use building one if I cannot, LEGALLY, shoot it semi-auto. (It's totally not worth it to get caught, as I own many "toys," and I am also in the high security business).

Not sure where you see that it is only legal to have a 1-shot shooter. Yes, in order to comply with the Roster, you may need to purchase/build an AR-pistol in a single-shot configuration in order to be exempt from the roster. But there is no PC that says you can't convert a legally obtained single-shot handgun into a 2+ shot handgun, as long as you also comply with the AW regs.

**RaymondMillbrae** · 07-02-2009, 5:00 PM

KE6gui,

how can I LEGALLY shoot it semi-auto?

For example, if I have an AR15, I can attach a MonsterMan Grip and use a detachable 10-round mag.

But what can I "adjust" on this AR pistol to enable me to use a detachable 10-round magazine? Attach a BB?

If a BB is the ONLY LEGAL WAY to shoot an AR pistol in semi-auto...then I gotta pass. I'm not taking ANY chances in removing the button to make quick mag changes and have the possibility of getting caught! (I've seen folks do this for competition - but they are taking a HUGE RISK in doing so)!!!

It's like owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip. (What use is an AR-15 with a BB during competition or home defense)? That's why we adhere to the silly CA laws and switch-out the pistol grip for a MonsterMan grip - so we can shoot semi-auto.

Is there another way to make quick mag changes and shoot semi-auto that I am not aware of, or are we stuck with a single-shot AR pistol?

Are you suggesting a MonsterMan Grip on an AR pistol?

In Christ: Raymond

**ke6guj** · 07-02-2009, 5:10 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

KE6gui,

how can I LEGALLY shoot it semi-auto?

For example, if I have an AR15, I can attach a MonsterMan Grip and use a detachable 10-round mag.

But what can I "adjust" on this AR pistol to enable me to use a detachable 10-round magazine? Attach a BB?

a Monsterman girp won't help. Use a BB so that it no longer has a detachable magazine. You can legally remove a 10-round magazine with a tool, and then insert a new magazine. The BB makes it so that at no time can a magazine be removed without a tool.

If a BB is the ONLY LEGAL WAY to shoot an AR pistol in semi-auto...then I gotta pass. I'm not taking ANY chances in removing the button to make quick mag changes and have the possibility of getting caught! (I've seen folks do this for competition - but they are taking a HUGE RISK in doing so)!!!

BB or some other type of "fixed magazine" latch. A proper BB allows you to legally remove the magazine with a tool and reload it with a new magazine. What is this HUGE RISK you are talking about? You aren't talking about those using the older Prince 50 Mag lock that you have to use an allen wrench to unlock the mag release?

It's like owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip. (What use is an AR-15 with a BB during competition)? That's why we adhere to th CA laws and switch-out the pistol grip for a MonsterMan grip - so we can shoot semi-auto.

Many people legally uses BBs in competition legally. Others have gone through training courses, like the Magpul course, along with LEOs, with no issues. The same reason a BB makes an AR-15 rifle legal would also make an AR-pistol legal.

Is there another way to make quick mag changes that I am not aware of, or are we stuck with a single-shot AR pistol?

yes, use a Bullet button or similar release.

Are you suggesting a MonsterMan Grip on an AR pistol?

Nope, monsterman grip won't help legalize an AR-pistol.

**CHS** · 07-02-2009, 5:19 PM

Originally posted by Pistolwhipped

You have to purchase a registered, by the manufacturer, AR pistol lower. That means the lower has to be deamed a "pistol" with the ATF by the creators. You cannot buy a regular rifle lower and register it as a pistol lower. The reason I go into such detail on that is there are FFLs that dont know that and will let you buy a rifle lower and "try" to register it as a pistol in your name. Will not work and it will cause problems for you and the FFL. People have them and I'm planning on getting one soon too.

FUD.

Lowers are deemed "receivers" by the manufacturers. Not pistols or rifles. A virgin receiver is just that, a virgin receiver. It can be manufactured into a rifle or pistol or AOW or SBR or SBS.

Please know more about what you're talking about before spreading stuff like this.

**RaymondMillbrae** · 07-02-2009, 6:55 PM

ke6guj,

I know two folks who just say "Screw it, I'll chance it" and remove the BB for competition. (They replace it afterwards).

And I have also spoken to 2 RO's that have told me of folks getting caught, in the past, doing exactly the same thing. (Removing the BB for competition, with the thought of replacing it after the shoot).

In all honesty, I have not seen anyone using the BB for competition. (But I have seen folks using CA-legal 10/20 or 10/30 mags with MonsterMan Grips).

I guess folks just have pre-ban hicap mags, or borrow pre-ban hicap mags from fellow shooters while at a shoot.

I don't mean to stir up a hornets nest here. But for me, I would not be happy with an AR pistol with a BB.

Maybe some folks are OK with this (as my shooting buddy is)...but not myself. I want to shoot that puppy in semi-auto with no BB attached. (Just quick drop, reload, and semi-auto all the way).

Thanks for taking the time to respond, though. I know it takes time out of our lives to think-through a proper response, and then post it.

Kudos.

In Christ: Raymond

**CHS** · 07-02-2009, 7:21 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

ke6guj,

I know two folks who just say "Screw it, I'll chance it" and remove the BB for competition. (They replace it afterwards).

And I have also spoken to 2 RO's that have told me of folks getting caught, in the past, doing exactly the same thing. (Removing the BB for competition, with the thought of replacing it after the shoot).

Why do all of your threads end up talking about felonies?

**ke6guj** · 07-02-2009, 8:00 PM

Originally posted by RaymondMillbrae

ke6guj,

I know two folks who just say "Screw it, I'll chance it" and remove the BB for competition. (They replace it afterwards).

And I have also spoken to 2 RO's that have told me of folks getting caught, in the past, doing exactly the same thing. (Removing the BB for competition, with the thought of replacing it after the shoot).

well, those would be people asking for trouble. Why take the time to legally configure your firearm, and then modify it into an illegal configuration while in public?

In all honesty, I have not seen anyone using the BB for competition. (But I have seen folks using CA-legal 10/20 or 10/30 mags with MonsterMan Grips).

I guess folks just have pre-ban hicap mags, or borrow pre-ban hicap mags from fellow shooters while at a shoot.

If using large-capacity mags in their rifles is more important, or being able to push the standard mag release to drop mags, then a MM grip would be a good idea on a featureless rifle.

I don't mean to stir up a hornets nest here. But for me, I would not be happy with an AR pistol with a BB.

Maybe some folks are OK with this (as my shooting buddy is)...but not myself. I want to shoot that puppy in semi-auto with no BB attached. (Just quick drop, reload, and semi-auto all the way).

Have you actually tried a BB? It only takes another second or two to legally drop the mag, reload, and semi-auto all the way with a Bullet Button mag release.

**RaymondMillbrae** · 07-02-2009, 8:32 PM

bdsmchs,

you asked, "Why do all of your threads end up talking about felonies"?

But wasn't it you who said, "Please know more about what you're talking about before spreading stuff like this".

Look at my posts, and you will note that I am a CA resident who is interested in shooting 3-gun matches...that's all. No more, no less.

I am interested in guidance and direction, and welcome the opinions of fellow competetors who have tread this ground before me.

Most of my questions have to do with:

1) Gear (Holsters, mags, etc...)
2) Ammo (Reload info on grains, FPS, and what is commenly used)
3) Sights to use on my AR for competition. (What is everyone using, and why)?
4) And now AR Pistols (I have been interested in these for a while).

Don't believe me? Go ahead, take a look at my posts.

You will see that ALL of my questions do not end up talking about felonies.

I'm a fellow shooter like yourself, who has served his country faithfully for 10-years (a Ranger who has looked the elephant in the eye far too many times), and an NRA Life member

So please don't steroetype me as one who is looking for garbage to "catch people in the act". I think you would not appreciate someone coming out and making a blanket statement like, "Why are ALL your posts asking so many curious questions? Are you doing something illegal that you are trying to hide"? (Even though you did not DIRECTLY ask this, your comment was very clear in your direction & train of thought).

I want to further our 2nd Amendment rights, and encourage lawful usage of weapons and arms by asking the correct questions, and leading by example. This is why I am here on Calguns - to be set straight, help others if I can...and not be falsley accused.

KE6GUJ,

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Why would someone go out of their way to make sure everything is Kosher"...and then take the chance of losing everything.

As for the MonsterMan Grip...yea...that's the way I am going with my new POF rifle. The grip feels very foreign to me. But I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

You also asked if I have tried a BB. "Yes," I have. It works OK when standing still, or laying prone, or behind a benchrest. But when your heart is pounding like a jackhammer, everything changes.

Maybe some folks have gotten used to it; maybe I can even get used to it. But I think it's gonna be kinda hard to teach this dog a new trick.

But I will not write this in stone, as who knows...I may actually try it sometime.

Thanks for everything. It has been a very informative thread for me.

In Christ: Raymond

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