Single Action Vs. Double Action

[Futurecollector]

You can shoot it in cowboy action shooting. You can use it to tell your grandkids how you used it in US-Mexican wars. Public indoctrination system being what it is, they probably won't catch on to that being a century out of date

Haha, yeah I know right, but my Kids/grand kids are going to be going to strict christian boarding schools in South dakota. lol

[Futurecollector]

Then your DA revolver needs a trigger job, or your hand needs a workout (in the gym, don't get any ideas), or both

No its cool, I just always cock it back (the revolver nick, dont get any ideas ) lol I just have a habit of shooting it that way idk lol

[Kokopelli]

Anyone can be a "fan" of single action revolvers.

[Futurecollector]

Anyone can be a "fan" of single action revolvers.

Thats not you right?

Please tell me its not!!!! please lol

[hawk1547]

Does anyone, have any links to a Brand new Black hawk, or the vaquero, I cant find anything for sale that is new?

New Black hawk,or Vaquero,here is a link:http://www.ruger.com

[nick]

Haha, yeah I know right, but my Kids/grand kids are going to be going to strict christian boarding schools in South dakota. lol

Fine, you can tell them Moses used this SA revolver to part the Red Sea with a single shot

[RogueSniper]

SA revolver are accurate and fun. The trigger on mine is sweet and has a nice release. I would rather have my SA revolver with me on a hunting trip than a Semiauto.

Remember playing Cowboys/girls or gunslingers when we were kids? That's what really got me wanting a SA revolver. After getting one and playing around with it, then reality set in - reloading that sucker! S - L - O - W !!!

- Swing out the loading gate
- Rotate the cylinder
- Align the cylinder to the rod
- Push the rod
- Eject the empty case
- Load round
- Rotate cylinder
- Repeat five more times!!!

I wouldn't give it up, though. It rounds out my collection. Now I'm hunting around for a Schofield (modern) in 45LC. It takes the pain out of reloading!

[scc1909]

If you're talking about revolvers, the single action guns require thumb cocking for each shot, and will be slightly slower than double action revolvers for that reason. Somebody well practiced with a single action revolver can be a fast and accurate shooter, however. I personally prefer double action revolvers for defensive us, but own a couple of single actions for the range.

I have a slightly different perspective, based on packing a DA/SA S&W .38 Police Special Revolver on and off for 15 years while on flight duty with the USAF. During annual qualification training the instructors used to have us prove to ourselves how much more controlled and accurate is SA vs DA. The lesson? Even the best DA pistol introduces a lot of monkey motion while pulling the trigger. In contrast, firing SA was like pulling the trigger on a bolt-action rifle.

YMMV...

[1JimMarch]

SAs have some advantages. On average their accuracy is higher, as the cylinder is fixed in place rather than swinging in and out on a crane. The way they soak up recoil and their overall ergonomics are superb, designed literally in the Victorian era by people who had a far better feel for hand tools than modern engineers running CAD/CAM systems.

For those interested in buying an SA:

One of the FIRST choices you need to consciously make is, "do I want a gun with a modern internal safety or not?".

ALL Rugers post-1973 (also known as "two screw" or "New Model") come standard with a transfer bar safety. That means if the trigger isn't pulled fully deliberately back, they ain't gonna go bang no matter if they're dropped or even slammed right on the hammer.

Pre-'73 Rugers like the "three-screw" 357 pictured originally didn't have safeties. That means that like a real 1873 Colt, if you drop it fully loaded it might go off. Slam the hammer on something (or drop it ON the hammer) and it WILL go boom. So you carry those "five up" - load one, skip one, load four, bring it to full cock, decock it, you have the hammer resting on the empty chamber.

That's how Wyatt Earp and all those guys back then carried, if they had half a brain. If they knew they were headed into trouble, they MIGHT load the 6th round.

Ruger offers a free retro-fit program to turn pre-'73 guns into transfer-bar-equipped specimens. Some feel it slightly screws up the trigger feel and deliberately don't do that. No problem, as long as you understand what you've got.

Uberti, USFA, Colt, Charles Daly, Pietta, Armi San Marco, Armi Chiappa and others still make "no safety, carry 'em five beans in the wheel" true clones of the 1873 Colt.

Ruger doesn't.

Beretta bought Uberti (the best of the Italian SAA makers) not that long ago, and had them build Beretta-branded variants with Ruger-style transfer bars. The quality on both Beretta and Uberti SAs isn't half bad; cosmetically they often beat Ruger, but when you get into high round counts or a gun you want to trust your butt to, Ruger makes the better gun.

Taurus' "Gaucho" is also a transfer-bar-equipped SA, but with horrible quality control problems. Avoid at all cost.

The highest quality SA guns made are by Freedom Arms. It is impossible to overstate how cool these are...for prices starting at around a grand USED. Each cylinder is cut to the exact frame it will ship with, eliminating mis-matches between the cylinder bores and the barrel. Average out of the box accuracy ranges from good to shocking, with some specimens documented as being able to exceed MOA - meaning groups of less than 1" at 100 *yards*. Consistently. Both the large-frame ('83) and mid-frame ('97) have internal safeties but ONLY the '97's true transfer bar should be trusted for fully-loaded carry.

Ok. Let's talk Rugers.

Originally (meaning pre-1973) Rugers came in three basic frame sizes: small ("Single Six") in .22/.22Magnum, mid-frame (357 and sometimes 357/9mm convertable) and large (.44Mag, also known as the SuperBlackhawk). In '73 the mid-frame got dropped...Blackhawks (adjustable sights) and then Vaqueros (fixed sights) were all built on an oversize 44Magnum-class frame, even if they were 357s (or 357/9mm convertable). This led to massively tough guns. In 45LC, which is supposed to be a low-pressure cartridge, people started realizing you could hot-rod it PAST the 44Magnum in these big guns, leading to factory ammo labeled "45LC+P" and "Ruger ONLY!!!".

In 2004 Ruger re-introduced the mid-frame size, in the "New Vaquero". This smaller gun was similar to the pre-1973 Blackhawks in overall size/heft, but with fixed sights they were a very close "size and heft clone" of the Colt SAA and a lot got snapped up for Cowboy Action shooting. As a 357 they're still tough as nails, with a cylinder beefier than an S&W 686 or Ruger's GP100. In 45LC the cylinder walls are too thin to take the "Ruger ONLY!!!" wild-child loads and you'll see warnings to that effect on the websites for high-performance ammo houses like Buffalo Bore.

My gun is a heavily modified New Vaquero 357. "Blue" variants originally had the "fake color case" finish on the primary frame; Ruger has now thankfully abandoned that cheesy mess and gone to a tasteful all-blue.

These new-release mid-frames are on average some of the best guns Ruger has ever built. They took the opportunity to change how they build the guns. Large-frame Ruger SA cylinders are drilled all-six-at-once leading to minor variances between cylinder bores, hence pressure and accuracy variations. The mid-frame cylinder bores are drilled in sequence with the same bit/reamer, leading to uniform bores. And since it's easier to check one bit/reamer setup, the uniform bores we're getting are very good. Your odds of getting a "bad monday gun" are lower, your out-of-the-box accuracy is likely to be very good for anything under $1,000, SA or DA or auto.

Ruger has a few other mid-frame variants:

* The New Vaquero now ships with an optional "Bisley" grip frame. More on that below. There's also an engraved "John Wayne Special Edition" NewVaq (sigh) which they didn't DARE desecrate with the fake color-case finish.

* The "Montado" is a short-barreled New Vaquero with a SuperBlackhawk hammer grafted on, a mod I've made to my gun that lowers my hammer reach. There are 357 and 45LC variants.

* There are now two adjustable-sight recent-production mid-frames: the 50th Anniversary 357 Blackhawk Flattop and a special Lipsey's distributor run of 2,000 44Spls that are otherwise the same as the Anniversary 357.

One of THE best deals in gun-land period is CDNN's closeout of the last 50th 357 Blackhawks for $400 each! HIGHLY recommended. See it in their catalog and call 'em up:

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/dowournewcat.html

While it doesn't have the 9mm conversion cylinder, it's a better gun overall than the convertible. It's the right size for a 357, and it's better made. Accuracy with the 9mm cylinder is only mediocre anyhow (slightly undersize jacketed bullets).

If on the other hand you really want 44Magnum or higher power levels, I strongly recommend the Ruger SuperBlackhawk "Hunter" variant, esp. the Bisley Hunter. Ruger's "Bisley" grip frame isn't all that similar to the original Colt Bisley, rather it's based more on an old custom gun owned by Elmer Keith called the "#5", but lengthened. Ruger's Bisley grip is well regarded for soaking up big recoil and for some people, just fitting big hands. It's overkill for the NewVaq I think, unless you have big mitts, but it rocks for the 44Mag or higher horsepower levels.

[Kokopelli]

Thats not you right?

Please tell me its not!!!! please lol

No, that's not me.

However this is me getting interested with SA, back in 1957...

[Kokopelli]

Thats not you right?

Please tell me its not!!!! please lol

No, that's not me.

But, this is me getting fascinated with SA revolvers back in 1957...

[nick]

Good reading, thanks, Jim.

[Futurecollector]

No, that's not me.

However this is me getting interested with SA, back in 1957...

haha, ok good man, did you watch any of that other guys movies? if not go watch Osama bin laden one! lol

thats a cool pic man, what pistol is that? lol
youll shoot your eye out kid!

[Futurecollector]

SAs have some advantages. On average their accuracy is higher, as the cylinder is fixed in place rather than swinging in and out on a crane. The way they soak up recoil and their overall ergonomics are superb, designed literally in the Victorian era by people who had a far better feel for hand tools than modern engineers running CAD/CAM systems.

For those interested in buying an SA:

One of the FIRST choices you need to consciously make is, "do I want a gun with a modern internal safety or not?".

ALL Rugers post-1973 (also known as "two screw" or "New Model") come standard with a transfer bar safety. That means if the trigger isn't pulled fully deliberately back, they ain't gonna go bang no matter if they're dropped or even slammed right on the hammer.

Pre-'73 Rugers like the "three-screw" 357 pictured originally didn't have safeties. That means that like a real 1873 Colt, if you drop it fully loaded it might go off. Slam the hammer on something (or drop it ON the hammer) and it WILL go boom. So you carry those "five up" - load one, skip one, load four, bring it to full cock, decock it, you have the hammer resting on the empty chamber.

That's how Wyatt Earp and all those guys back then carried, if they had half a brain. If they knew they were headed into trouble, they MIGHT load the 6th round.

Ruger offers a free retro-fit program to turn pre-'73 guns into transfer-bar-equipped specimens. Some feel it slightly screws up the trigger feel and deliberately don't do that. No problem, as long as you understand what you've got.

Uberti, USFA, Colt, Charles Daly, Pietta, Armi San Marco, Armi Chiappa and others still make "no safety, carry 'em five beans in the wheel" true clones of the 1873 Colt.

Ruger doesn't.

Beretta bought Uberti (the best of the Italian SAA makers) not that long ago, and had them build Beretta-branded variants with Ruger-style transfer bars. The quality on both Beretta and Uberti SAs isn't half bad; cosmetically they often beat Ruger, but when you get into high round counts or a gun you want to trust your butt to, Ruger makes the better gun.

Taurus' "Gaucho" is also a transfer-bar-equipped SA, but with horrible quality control problems. Avoid at all cost.

The highest quality SA guns made are by Freedom Arms. It is impossible to overstate how cool these are...for prices starting at around a grand USED. Each cylinder is cut to the exact frame it will ship with, eliminating mis-matches between the cylinder bores and the barrel. Average out of the box accuracy ranges from good to shocking, with some specimens documented as being able to exceed MOA - meaning groups of less than 1" at 100 *yards*. Consistently. Both the large-frame ('83) and mid-frame ('97) have internal safeties but ONLY the '97's true transfer bar should be trusted for fully-loaded carry.

Ok. Let's talk Rugers.

Originally (meaning pre-1973) Rugers came in three basic frame sizes: small ("Single Six") in .22/.22Magnum, mid-frame (357 and sometimes 357/9mm convertable) and large (.44Mag, also known as the SuperBlackhawk). In '73 the mid-frame got dropped...Blackhawks (adjustable sights) and then Vaqueros (fixed sights) were all built on an oversize 44Magnum-class frame, even if they were 357s (or 357/9mm convertable). This led to massively tough guns. In 45LC, which is supposed to be a low-pressure cartridge, people started realizing you could hot-rod it PAST the 44Magnum in these big guns, leading to factory ammo labeled "45LC+P" and "Ruger ONLY!!!".

In 2004 Ruger re-introduced the mid-frame size, in the "New Vaquero". This smaller gun was similar to the pre-1973 Blackhawks in overall size/heft, but with fixed sights they were a very close "size and heft clone" of the Colt SAA and a lot got snapped up for Cowboy Action shooting. As a 357 they're still tough as nails, with a cylinder beefier than an S&W 686 or Ruger's GP100. In 45LC the cylinder walls are too thin to take the "Ruger ONLY!!!" wild-child loads and you'll see warnings to that effect on the websites for high-performance ammo houses like Buffalo Bore.

My gun is a heavily modified New Vaquero 357. "Blue" variants originally had the "fake color case" finish on the primary frame; Ruger has now thankfully abandoned that cheesy mess and gone to a tasteful all-blue.

These new-release mid-frames are on average some of the best guns Ruger has ever built. They took the opportunity to change how they build the guns. Large-frame Ruger SA cylinders are drilled all-six-at-once leading to minor variances between cylinder bores, hence pressure and accuracy variations. The mid-frame cylinder bores are drilled in sequence with the same bit/reamer, leading to uniform bores. And since it's easier to check one bit/reamer setup, the uniform bores we're getting are very good. Your odds of getting a "bad monday gun" are lower, your out-of-the-box accuracy is likely to be very good for anything under $1,000, SA or DA or auto.

Ruger has a few other mid-frame variants:

* The New Vaquero now ships with an optional "Bisley" grip frame. More on that below. There's also an engraved "John Wayne Special Edition" NewVaq (sigh) which they didn't DARE desecrate with the fake color-case finish.

* The "Montado" is a short-barreled New Vaquero with a SuperBlackhawk hammer grafted on, a mod I've made to my gun that lowers my hammer reach. There are 357 and 45LC variants.

* There are now two adjustable-sight recent-production mid-frames: the 50th Anniversary 357 Blackhawk Flattop and a special Lipsey's distributor run of 2,000 44Spls that are otherwise the same as the Anniversary 357.

One of THE best deals in gun-land period is CDNN's closeout of the last 50th 357 Blackhawks for $400 each! HIGHLY recommended. See it in their catalog and call 'em up:

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/dowournewcat.html

While it doesn't have the 9mm conversion cylinder, it's a better gun overall than the convertible. It's the right size for a 357, and it's better made. Accuracy with the 9mm cylinder is only mediocre anyhow (slightly undersize jacketed bullets).

If on the other hand you really want 44Magnum or higher power levels, I strongly recommend the Ruger SuperBlackhawk "Hunter" variant, esp. the Bisley Hunter. Ruger's "Bisley" grip frame isn't all that similar to the original Colt Bisley, rather it's based more on an old custom gun owned by Elmer Keith called the "#5", but lengthened. Ruger's Bisley grip is well regarded for soaking up big recoil and for some people, just fitting big hands. It's overkill for the NewVaq I think, unless you have big mitts, but it rocks for the 44Mag or higher horsepower levels.

WOW jim thanks for all the good info!!!

I know have my mind set on a .357/9MM or .44Mag in the Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk... Thanks for your help!

so what type of loads do you run through yours?

[1JimMarch]

The strongest load I've shot in mine is the Doubletap 357 "full house" 125gr Gold Dot. It pulls almost 1,600fps. Only Buffalo Bore *might* be a tad stronger.

I used one of those Doubletap 125s on a bowling ball once . Blew it the hell up - split it clean in half, sent pieces of the concrete core back past my feet (around a 20 yard shot, managed to hit it dead center the first time). Turns out a bowling ball is about an inch-thick plastic shell and then they pour concrete through the fingerholes.

The guy who had the old bowling ball targets told me he'd never seen anything like that kind of bowling ball fatality move out of a handgun.

Again: the mid-frames can cope with ANY factory 357 load. If that's all the horsepower you need, better to run a mid-frame than a large, as the quality is on average higher.

If you do need 44Mag horsepower, you ought to at least see how a Bisley grip fits in your hand.