Kimber TLE/R2 Vs. Springfield operator

[Cthulu]

I am thinking about getting a 1911 and i was thinking about one of these two.
Does anyone have any thoughts or personal experience with either of these.
And what what did you like or dislike about them???


Cheers!!!

[E__WOK]

Kimber---stupid series 2 safety.

[cho034442]

If you are talking about the Kimber Custom TLE II, I like it very much. Mine is accurate and reliable (with only 250 round count). The RL II should be the same as the TLE II, except the railed frame.
As for the Operator, I have heard a lot of good things about the TRP Operator, but I don't have any experience with it. When new, the Operator also costs more than the Custom TLE II.

[ohsmily]

If you are referring to a TRP Operator and not the standard Operator, the TRP Op is far superior to the Kimber RLII. It is also more expensive. The standard "Loaded" Operator is much more on par with TLE with a rail. However, I am a Springfield man, and do not particularly like kimbers.

[Cthulu]

I have always heard mixed things about kimbers. I have a springfield XD and love it very much. But i am new to the realm of 1911's and I know what i will get with the Springfield. Though the kimber looks quite nice and abit cheaper too. I Know You get what you pay for.. i need to find a range in orange county that will let you rent different guns to try and shoot them both to find out. Anyone know of any?

[PLINK]

I have a Springfield Mil-Spec and a Colt made in 1918. I know one is 1911 and the other is a 1911A1 but the Springfield is very close to the orginal design. Also a lot of the original Colt parts will interchange with Springfield with minor or no fitting required. I like Springfields but the TLE is very appealing especially for the price. Try to find one with an internal extractor if you get the TLE. Springfields also have a lifetime warrenty that Kimber does not.

EDIT: I was wrong and corrected. To prevent anyone else from posting on my error I have editted my post. People should really read the entire thread before posting.

[chickenfried]

The Kimber uses the Schwartz(sp?) firing pin safety on the Series II, it is not the same as the Series 80 found on new Colts.

One thing you should know between these two is that the Kimber is a 80 series (trigger plunger fire pin safety thingy) and the Springfield is a 70 series (does not have this internal safety). Some say the 80 series internal safety effects the trigger pull. Some also don't like the fact that is has more parts than the 70 series. I have a Springfield Mil-Spec and a Colt made in 1918. I know one is 1911 and the other is a 1911A1 but the Springfield is very close to the orginal design. Also a lot of the original Colt parts will interchange with Springfield with minor or no fitting required. I like Springfields but the TLE is very appealing especially for the price. Try to find one with an internal extractor if you get the TLE. Springfields also have a lifetime warrenty that Kimber does not.

[PLINK]

The Kimber uses the Schwartz(sp?) firing pin safety on the Series II, it is not the same as the Series 80 found on new Colts.

Thanks for the correction. Does this safety work in a similar fashion?

Edit: I found my answer. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/Kimber_SII_FPB.htm

[leelaw]

Schwartz safety is actuated by the grip safety, not the trigger, resulting in a trigger pull that is not affected by some other linkage which might cause unwanted feel or grittyness.

I've never had a problem with the Schwartz safety, but did dabble with some Colt Series 80 1911s and could feel a difference that made me decide against every buying a Series 80. It's surprising how many people will back the Series 80 over the Schwartz, seemingly only because the Series 80 is put out by Colt. Mmmmm, Kool-Aid.

[chickenfried]

I don't think this is a case of prancing pony Kool Aid. There seem to be fewer problems reported with the series 80 vs. the series II kimbers. Maybe because the series 80 has been around longer. More time to work out the kinks and for people to forget the problems it might have had it when it came out. Plus no internet back then.

Series II is new on the Kimbers. More likely to have problems and those problems will be fresh in people's minds. Plus the internet means more people will know about problems.

It's surprising how many people will back the Series 80 over the Schwartz, seemingly only because the Series 80 is put out by Colt. Mmmmm, Kool-Aid.

[ivanimal]

I have a TLE-RL and a Kimber custom. The TLE is the second most accurate handgun I own I have put 1000 or so rounds downrange and have only had a couple of hiccups. probably due to reloads. The custom just does not get used as much.

[DrjonesUSA]

One thing you should know between these two is that the Kimber is a 80 series (trigger plunger fire pin safety thingy) and the Springfield is a 70 series (does not have this internal safety).

That is not correct: The Kimber safety is actuated by the grip safety, NOT the trigger like the Colt Series 80. The Kimber Series II safety and a Colt Series 80 are two entirely different systems, designed by different people and they function differently, though the end result (firing pin safety) is essentially the same. I do believe that the Kimber system uses more delicate parts compared to Colt's Ser. 80, but either system can easily be thrown out of whack if the parts aren't perfectly to spec.

Further, the Series 80 safety, like Springfield's ILS, is very easily disabled and removed, whereas the Kimber Ser. II safety requires you to remove the rear sight in order to remove all of the BS "safety" components.

Some say the 80 series internal safety effects the trigger pull. Some also don't like the fact that is has more parts than the 70 series. I have a Springfield Mil-Spec and a Colt made in 1918. I know one is 1911 and the other is a 1911A1 but the Springfield is very close to the orginal design.

It is a simple fact of life that the more parts a machine has, the more likely it is to fail.

I've read that any competent gunsmith can produce an excellent trigger on a Ser. 80 Colt. In any case, the point is moot as the safety can be easily removed.

Springfield guns are identical to a "real" 1911, except for the ILS, however that can also be removed in a matter of minutes by swapping out the factor mainspring guts for standard 1911 parts.

It costs a total of maybe $10 in parts and should take about 10 min. of your time, if you know what you are doing.

It's simple, but can be tricky for the first time or two as the MS is under so much pressure.

[DrjonesUSA]

First, are you talking about the TRP Operator, or what? There are several models produced by Springfield called "Operator."

My comments below are based on the TRP Operator.

Which pistol to get isn't even a question: The Operator, hands down, as long as you can find the original FULL-LENGTH rail version and not the new chopped-rail abortion that they're passing off as an Operator.

JMB cried the day they neutered the Operator.

I own both a Springfield TRP Operator and a Kimber Custom II (not the TLE).

The Kimber is a great gun and I'll never sell it, but I'll probably also never buy another Kimber, not after owning several TRPs.

The TRP Operator is absolutely sublime.

It is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot, period.

The fit and finish are top-notch, and it is an extremely unique pistol, having the full-length rail and bushingless bull barrel. The "cool factor" is positively through the roof, but it is also an extremely formidable and functional weapon.

The full rail & bull barrel, along with the added weight of the FLGR, all combine to make the TRP a hefty pistol, which adds to its excellent feel and also drastically reduces felt recoil and muzzle rise, making it an absolute joy to shoot and making follow-up shots very quick and accurate. It has of course been 100% reliable.

My Kimber, on the other hand, has been of average accuracy and 100% reliable, however it is of course in a different ballpark than the TRP Operator, as it costs about 1/2 as much ($600 or so vs. around $1200+ for the Operator).

The fit and finish are nowhere near the level of the Operator (again, totally different guns), however the same is true of the "higher-end" Kimbers that I've seen; they are simply not as nice as the TRPs.

The KimPro finish has a wide reputation for sucking, and it's very true but also too bad, as a nice matte black finish looks great on 1911s. Kimber's finish just wears off very easily.

Springfield's Armory Kote finish, on the other hand, is a very nice finish; it looks great and wears well.

Another negative for the Kimber is the external extractor: love it or hate it (I personally hate external extractors) but you just can't argue that it is an improvement on the original design in any way.

The 1911 as designed with an INternal extractor has been humming along just fine now for almost 100 years, thankyouverymuch.

If you can find a TLEII with an INTERAL extractor, great, but it's still nowhere as nice a gun as the TRP in any way.

Further, I much prefer the more aggressive 20 LPI checkering found on the TRPs over the 30 LPI checkering found on some of Kimber's guns.

At first some may think it too aggressive, but give yourself a little time to get used to it and you will want ALL your guns to have it, trust me!

Hope this helps.

[chickenfried]

Kimber started using external extractors three years after the series II was out.

The Kimber Warrior, except for the CA approved model, does not come with the series II safety. According to the ad hype, it's modeled after the pistol carried by the United States Marine Detachment assigned to U.S. Special Operations Command. So another group thought the guns were better without the series II. The question you have to ask yourself, are you a SWAT or Marine wannabee?

I think the Series II safety gets a bad rap, due largely to it appearing at the same time as Kimber's external extractor, which was definitely a problem.

.....Maybe I'm giving inappropriate weight to this, but if the Series II safety is in use by LAPD SWAT, then I think it will probably be okay for me.

[chickenfried]

Nope, he already cried himself out when they started putting rails on 1911's.

JMB cried the day they neutered the Operator.