Is this a Colt 1911 or 1911A1?

[Wordupmybrotha]

Continuation of my previous thread where I had posted my impulse purchase, here are the pics after getting it out of jail couple of days ago. But I made a separate thread, because I have some questions about it that may get lost if posted in the other thread. Based on the serial number (408674), it's manufactured in 1918 and that would make it a 1911 since 1911A1 were produced from 1924 per Wikipedia.

However, it has an arched mainspring housing and a longer beaver tail, characteristic of an A1. The sights are adjustable. Since the previous owner has passed, I'm relying on the collective wisdom of Calguns.

Do you guys think this is a legit 1911 and the previous owner switched out the sights, grip safety spur, and the mainspring housing? What do you think this gun is worth? What do you think the conversion kit is worth?

[Wordupmybrotha]

Range report:

It's a sweet shooter. Shot about 70 rounds through it with Federal 230gr FMJ aluminum. Felt recoil was less than my G21. Interesting juxtaposition with a Glock. When using the thumbs forward grip (aka modern grip) sometimes the grip safety didn't engage because of the relatively flat grip safety. My SA 9mm and Sig 1911's grip safeties protruded noticeably more, to the point of pain after several magazines. So I resorted to the revolver grip (i.e. the left thumb over my right thumb) and I had no problems with the safety.

The conversion kit was really reliable and accurate. Both standard and hyper velocity cycled no problem. Shot, Federal Automatch, Blazers, CCI SV, and Ammscor SV.

Sights are hard to see black on black. One 7 round mag on each target.

[thetruecheese]

looks like a dead giveaway with no scalloped cuts on the sides behind the trigger


thinly veiled showing off new gat thread

[plumbum]

Bubba'd, no doubt - I'll give you $350 for her.

[Wordupmybrotha]

looks like a dead giveaway with no scalloped cuts on the sides behind the trigger


thinly veiled showing off new gat thread

No, it's not a thin veil, it's transparent.

[ojisan]

Looks like the slide on right side is stamped US ARMY.
Target style sights on this slide are not military type.

1911 style frame.
If it was a military issue gun, the right side of frame is usually marked "United States Property" near the slide stop lever pin where the serial number is now.

Some military issue 1911s were armory updated to 1911A1 spec.
I don't think the trigger guard cuts were part of the updates.
If not marked US Property, probably it's a commercial frame updated with A1 type military surplus parts kit along the way (mil slide and accessory type target sights; short trigger, bigger hammer spur, arched MSH).

Colt ACE .22 Kits can sell for $350 and higher depending on markings and condition.

[HibikiR]

I think it says United States Property on the other side forward of the slide stop. Any significance to that location?

[Wordupmybrotha]

Looks like the slide on right side is stamped US ARMY.
Target style sights on this slide are not military type.

1911 style frame.
If it was a military issue gun, the right side of frame is usually marked "United States Property" near the slide stop lever pin where the serial number is now.

Some military issue 1911s were armory updated to 1911A1 spec.
I don't think the trigger guard cuts were part of the updates.
If not marked US Property, probably it's a commercial frame updated with A1 type military surplus parts kit along the way (mil slide and accessory type target sights; short trigger, bigger hammer spur, arched MSH).

Colt ACE .22 Kits can sell for $350 and higher depending on markings and condition.

"United States Property" is rollmarked on the left side of the frame.

Doesn't have ACE rollmarked on the slide. Just a Colt trademark.

I think it says United States Property on the other side forward of the slide stop. Any significance to that location?

Yep

[Nick Adams]

I shoot modern 1911's, you guys are sending me down the history rabbit hole. Thanks.

[ojisan]

"United States Property" is rollmarked on the left side of the frame.

Doesn't have ACE rollmarked on the slide. Just a Colt trademark.

Yep

Sorry, I can't see the pics too clearly on my side.
If it is marked U.S.P, then most likely it was 1911 armory upgraded to 1911A1 at some time.

IIRC, if the .22 slide is marked ACE, then the slide was originally sold as a part of complete .22 gun.
If no ACE then it's a Colt conversion kit.

Looks like someone bought a surplus gun and did some target shooting upgrades to it.
Bullseye shooting was real popular around then, so that's the flavor of the mods.

[highpower]

Definitely a 1911 that has been modified by someone. As to whether the arched mainspring housing and the grip safety was done by a government entity or after it left the service is anyone's guess. Even the parkerized finish could have been done after it went into civilian hands but to me it looks like an armory refinish.

Notice the heart shaped cutouts in the grip area, that was a feature that was introduced in 1918 to save time and speed up the manufacturing process. The original finish on your gun would have been what Colt called the "rough finish", which eliminated some of the finial bluing steps which was also introduced to save time in manufacturing. This started to be phased in at about serial number 312,000 mixed in with the earlier "brushed blue" finish. By around number 350,000 all Colt production was the rough finish Today collectors call it the "black Army" finish although it was never officially known as that.

This process produced a very fragile finish and today not to many guns from this period survive with their original finish intact. After the war Colt went back to the original brushed blue finish and they were made like that for the government until late in 1941 when they switched over to parkerizing. I don't have a 1911 produced later in 1918, but I do have one made before we entered WWI and one made early in 1918 before the rough finish was introduced.

Your gun #408674 was most likely made sometime in August or September of 1918.

This 1911 was shipped on 28 March, 1918 to Springfield Armory and retains about 93-95% of its original finish along with the original grip panels:

[Wordupmybrotha]

Definitely a 1911 that has been modified by someone. As to whether the arched mainspring housing and the grip safety was done by a government entity or after it left the service is anyone's guess. Even the parkerized finish could have been done after it went into civilian hands but to me it looks like an armory refinish.

Notice the heart shaped cutouts in the grip area, that was a feature that was introduced in 1918 to save time and speed up the manufacturing process. The original finish on your gun would have been what Colt called the "rough finish", which eliminated some of the finial bluing steps which was also introduced to save time in manufacturing. This started to be phased in at about serial number 312,000 mixed in with the earlier "brushed blue" finish. By around number 350,000 all Colt production was the rough finish Today collectors call it the "black Army" finish although it was never officially known as that.

This process produced a very fragile finish and today not to many guns from this period survive with their original finish intact. After the war Colt went back to the original brushed blue finish and they were made like that for the government until late in 1941 when they switched over to parkerizing. I don't have a 1911 produced later in 1918, but I do have one made before we entered WWI and one made early in 1918 before the rough finish was introduced.

Your gun #408674 was most likely made sometime in August or September of 1918.

This 1911 was shipped on 28 March, 1918 to Springfield Armory and retains about 93-95% of its original finish along with the original grip panels:

Thanks for that info. And sweet specimen you've got there. I see yours has a pony on the end of the slide and JM (US military inspector ) initials on the frame.

[highpower]

Some more information for you;

Colt moved the rampant horse from the rear of the slide to the middle sometime after serial number 290,000. The inspector initials on mine are actually "JMG" for J.M. Gilbert who was the Government inspector at Colt mid 1917 to 1918. His initials appear between serial numbers 230,000 to 302,000 after which they were stamped with the SA eagle head mark with numbers.

The left side of the frames were stamped "United States Property" at around serial number 510,000 (updated per GM4spd) at which time it was relocated to the right side above the serial number.

[Wordupmybrotha]

Some more information for you;

Colt moved the rampant horse from the rear of the slide to the middle sometime after serial number 290,000. The inspector initials on mine are actually "JMG" for J.M. Gilbert who was the Government inspector at Colt mid 1917 to 1918. His initials appear between serial numbers 230,000 to 302,000 after which they were stamped with the SA eagle head mark with numbers.

The left side of the frames were stamped "United States Property" until they switched to the 1911A1 pattern pistols at serial number 700,000 at which time it was relocated to the right side above the serial number.

Good to know! Interesting to learn about the production history. Any recommendations on where to go to find out its value?

[GM4spd]

The left side of the frames were stamped "United States Property" until they switched to the 1911A1 pattern pistols at serial number 700,000 at which time it was relocated to the right side above the serial number.

]

The UNITED STATES PROPERTY was moved around serial 510,000 in late
1918,these were still 1911 frames. Pete