Post 07-2018, AR pistol build thread

[IceKnight366]

After reading through this entire thread, other websites, videos, speaking with 20+ FFLs and two seperate FFLs who are currently making SSE2 AR pistols, the question I have is concerning what Quiet has referenced:

It is not legal to make an unsafe pistol. [PC 32000(a)]
It is legal to make an exempt pistol. [PC 32100(b)]

That said, due to CA's "home built (80%)" firearm laws, starting 01-01-2017, it may no longer be legal to make an exempt pistol (dimensionally compliant bolt-action/break-top single-shot pistol) and convert it to semi-auto because it would be considered making an unsafe handgun.

Because "manufacturing" is now legally defined as: [PC 29180(a)]
A. Fabricating or constructing a firearm.
B. Fitting together parts to construct a firearm.

It can now be argued that converting the firearm from single-shot to semi-auto, is making a new firearm.

{wait and see mode, while lawyers do battle}

Penal Code 29180
(a) For purposes of this chapter, “manufacturing” or “assembling” a firearm means to fabricate or construct a firearm, or to fit together the component parts of a firearm to construct a firearm.

The problem here is that if they make the definition of "manufacture" more broad, there seems to be no non-trivial difference between "manufacture" and "assemble". Anytime you "disassemble" your pistol or rifle to be cleaned or fixed are you manufacturing? So either we are already all felons for illegally manufacturing firearms or nobody should be worried about converting an SSA2 to SA. What about if you change the grip? Handguard? Muzzle(which you need to do to make featureless. This would put you in a catch 22 where if you change the muzzle you're manufacturing and are in legal trouble, but if you leave the muzzle on you have an AW and are in legal trouble). If all that is NOT considered manufacturing than how can there be a problem installing a gas block/tube, broching the mag well, drilling the gas port, taking the dowel out, etc... to make it SA?

If all that IS considered manufacturing than another question arises next:

CA hass it's own criteria for determining who a "manufacturer" is.

Currently, there are licensed manufacturers (FFLs) and unlicensed manufacturers (non-FFLs).

When does the process of manufacturing end? When the build is complete and functional? The two companies I've spoken to don't feel comfortable taking a stripped lower from another company and building that into a compliant single-shot bolt-action/break-top because they're unsure if that would be considered part of the "manufacturing" process or not. But how can this be? As long as the lower isn't sold (and possibily the build isn't complete?) and is in the hands of an FFL it seems to me to still be undergoing the process of manufacturing.

So either it's perfectly legal to convert a compliant SSE2 pistol to SA OR any FFL can take any stripped lower and build from the ground up a complitant SSE2. By definition it seems either or, it can't be both.

If the manufacturing ends at the level of a stripped lower it seems you can convert a SSE2 to SA. If it doesn't, than FFLs can use any non-rifle-registered lower (assuming it hasn't been tested as SA, which I think is highly unlikely. That's something you have to worry about with completed uppers, not usually lowers) to build a SSE2.

To reiterate, there seems to be only three options (maybe more, but these seem to be the only relevant ones).
1) The Manufacturing process ends at the level of a stripped lower (FFLs can NOT make an SSE2 out of a stripped lower that wasn't made by them, BUT you can convert SSE2 to SA)
2) The Manufacturing process ends at the level of a completed and function pistol or rifle (FFLs CAN make an SSE2 out of a stripped lower that wasn't made by them, AND you can convert SSE2 to SA).
3) The Manufacturing process never ends (FFLS CAN make an SEE2 out of a stripped lower that wasn't made by them, BUT you can NOT convert SSE2 to SA, AND we are already all felons)

Since 3) seems to be the only definition of "manufacture" that restricts conversion of an SSE2 to SA, and it seems to be the most rediculous by FAR, we seem within our rights to convert SSE2 to SA.

That being said, [PC 29180] explicity states: "For purposes of this chapter, 'manufacturing' or 'assembling' a firearm means to fabricate or construct a firearm, or to fit together the component parts of a firearm to construct a firearm." And that chapter seems to be specifically about building from an 80% or "home-built". It would therefore seem it does NOT apply to any other chapter unless specifically stated to apply to that chapter. If that definition of "manufacture" applies to other chapters outside Chapter 3 (home-built firearms), everyone with an ar-15, ak47, or ANY semi-automatic rifle needs to apply for a SN, engrave it, and notify the DOJ of completion. Indeed, perhaps even anyone with ANY long gun! Which means, again, hundreds of thousands of us (millions?) are already felons. This seems extraordinary and totally implausible.

To be clear, I am NOT a lawyer and am not advocating to do anything illegal. Don't take this as legal advice. Nevertheless, I feel I've done more research on this than at least 50% of people in this thread and, as it seems to me, Californian's seem within-their rights to convert SSE2s to SA.

All your information has helped considerably Quiet! Many thanks. I hope to get your opinions on it.

[Quiet]

80% AR pistol build sticky, updated on 07-15-2018

[Quiet]

That being said, [PC 29180] explicity states: "For purposes of this chapter, 'manufacturing' or 'assembling' a firearm means to fabricate or construct a firearm, or to fit together the component parts of a firearm to construct a firearm." And that chapter seems to be specifically about building from an 80% or "home-built". It would therefore seem it does NOT apply to any other chapter unless specifically stated to apply to that chapter. If that definition of "manufacture" applies to other chapters outside Chapter 3 (home-built firearms), everyone with an ar-15, ak47, or ANY semi-automatic rifle needs to apply for a SN, engrave it, and notify the DOJ of completion. Indeed, perhaps even anyone with ANY long gun! Which means, again, hundreds of thousands of us (millions?) are already felons. This seems extraordinary and totally implausible.

CA self-made firearm laws applies to all types of firearms (handguns, rifles, shotguns).

Starting 07-01-2018...

1. All completed non-exempt self-made (80%) firearm need CA DOJ marking info engraved on it before 01-01-2019. [11 CCR 5510(a)(1)]
^Exemptions for:
A. Self-made firearms that have BATFE approved markings. Such as Title 2 firearms. [11 CCR 5508(a)]
B. Self-made long guns that were made before 12-16-1968. [11 CCR 5508(b)]
C. Self-made firearms that were voluntarily registered with CA DOJ before 07-01-2019. [11 CCR 5508(c)]
D. Self-made firearms that are made by FFLs. [11 CCR 5508(d)]
E. Self-made firearms that are C&R or antique.

2. In order to make a self-made (80%) firearm after 06-30-2018, the maker needs CA DOJ marking info engraved on it. [11 CCR 5510(b)]


California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divsion 5 Chapter 41 Section 5510
(a) An individual who owns a self-manufactured or self-assembled firearm originally made from an unfinished receiver or frame that has not yet been recorded with the Department shall:
(1) Beginning on July 1, 2018, apply to the Department to request a unique serial number to record the firearm with the Department. The individual shall submit an electronic application to request a serial number for the self-manufactured or self-assembled firearm to the Department before January 1, 2019.
(b) As of July 1, 2018, no individual shall manufacture or assemble a firearm from an unfinished receiver or frame unless the individual applies to the Department for a unique serial number prior to manufacturing or assembling the firearm.

[Quiet]

The problem here is that if they make the definition of "manufacture" more broad, there seems to be no non-trivial difference between "manufacture" and "assemble". Anytime you "disassemble" your pistol or rifle to be cleaned or fixed are you manufacturing? So either we are already all felons for illegally manufacturing firearms or nobody should be worried about converting an SSA2 to SA. What about if you change the grip? Handguard? Muzzle(which you need to do to make featureless. This would put you in a catch 22 where if you change the muzzle you're manufacturing and are in legal trouble, but if you leave the muzzle on you have an AW and are in legal trouble). If all that is NOT considered manufacturing than how can there be a problem installing a gas block/tube, broching the mag well, drilling the gas port, taking the dowel out, etc... to make it SA?

Take note that...

After CA DOJ issues their marking info, the applicant has up to 30 days to change the configuration of the firearm. This requires updating the firearm's info via CFARS and uploading pictures of the firearm in it's new configuration. [11 CCR 5522]

It is unknown... if this is CA DOJ allowing conversion of an exempt handgun into a non-exempt handgun configuration or if this is a trap, design to get people to incrimidate themselves by providing proof of making an unsafe handgun. {lawyers need to go over this}

It is also unknown... if the 30 day window means CA DOJ will view any modification to configuration outside of the 30 day window to be an illegal modification. {lawyers need to go over this}

[IceKnight366]

CA self-made firearm laws applies to all types of firearms (handguns, rifles, shotguns).

Right, Self-made firarms laws apply to all types of firearms, but not all types of firearms firearms apply to self-made firearm laws - only self-made one's do. That's a big difference. Or otherwise, whether your pistol or rifle was self-made or manufactured by a company you need to apply for a SN, engrave it, etc... Which is obviously false. If I buy a spikes tactical lower from my FFL you don't need to have it engraved, SN'ed, etc... But if you can't take laws that apply to self-made firearms only and apply them to every firearm, why should we apply the term "manufacturing" to every firearm when it clearly states "only for this chapter" (self-made firearms). It seems the answer is right in front of us: we shouldn't.

California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divsion 5 Chapter 41 Section 5510
(a) An individual who owns a self-manufactured or self-assembled firearm originally made from an unfinished receiver or frame that has not yet been recorded with the Department shall:
(1) Beginning on July 1, 2018, apply to the Department to request a unique serial number to record the firearm with the Department. The individual shall submit an electronic application to request a serial number for the self-manufactured or self-assembled firearm to the Department before January 1, 2019.
(b) As of July 1, 2018, no individual shall manufacture or assemble a firearm from an unfinished receiver or frame unless the individual applies to the Department for a unique serial number prior to manufacturing or assembling the firearm.

Take note that...

After CA DOJ issues their marking info, the applicant has up to 30 days to change the configuration of the firearm. This requires updating the firearm's info via CFARS and uploading pictures of the firearm in it's new configuration. [11 CCR 5522]

It is unknown... if this is CA DOJ allowing conversion of an exempt handgun into a non-exempt handgun configuration or if this is a trap, design to get people to incrimidate themselves by providing proof of making an unsafe handgun. {lawyers need to go over this}

It is also unknown... if the 30 day window means CA DOJ will view any modification to configuration outside of the 30 day window to be an illegal modification. {lawyers need to go over this}

This is incredibly interesting. If interpreted in the most extreme way it would entail that if anything needs to be replaced on one's rifle, it's safer to throw it away (have it destroyed, or at least the lower destroyed) than to resubmit an application. If that's true, these laws are a lot worse than anyone has yet realized.
But again, I think it's important to note that this seems to only apply to self-made firearms. There's nothing in the law that would indicate it applies to firearms in general. That's why throughout the entire written law it states, "made from an unfinished receiver or frame that has not yet been recorded with the Department" and "request a serial number for the self-manufactured... firearm" and "no individual shall self-manufacture or assemble a firearm from an unfinished receiver or frame" etc... All of this is about home-built firearms.

[MosinVirus]

I wonder then if you can never refinish the firearm that will make it look different, or use different parts that will alter appearance past 30 days of registering...

For example, you decide to hard chrome a previously all black handgun.
Or you decide to get a different slide with an RMR slot cut into it.
Or you get a different trigger.
etc.

[IceKnight366]

I wonder then if you can never refinish the firearm that will make it look different, or use different parts that will alter appearance past 30 days of registering...

For example, you decide to hard chrome a previously all black handgun.
Or you decide to get a different slide with an RMR slot cut into it.
Or you get a different trigger.
etc.

If you take the strictest interpretation of that law (that it applies to non-home-built firearms too) than yes, that's exactly what it means. That's because you'll likely need to dissemble to do that. Once you re-assemble you would be "manufacturing". But again, I don't think we have any reason to take this law to apply in the strictest way.

[Quiet]

Right, Self-made firarms laws apply to all types of firearms, but not all types of firearms firearms apply to self-made firearm laws - only self-made one's do. That's a big difference. Or otherwise, whether your pistol or rifle was self-made or manufactured by a company you need to apply for a SN, engrave it, etc... Which is obviously false. If I buy a spikes tactical lower from my FFL you don't need to have it engraved, SN'ed, etc... But if you can't take laws that apply to self-made firearms only and apply them to every firearm, why should we apply the term "manufacturing" to every firearm when it clearly states "only for this chapter" (self-made firearms). It seems the answer is right in front of us: we shouldn't.

The Spike Tactical AR lower receiver is the firearm and that firearm was made by a 07-FFL (Spike Tactical), so you making that receiver into a functional firearm is exempt from the CA self-made/assembled firearm laws. [11 CCR 5508(d)]

[IceKnight366]

The Spike Tactical AR lower receiver is the firearm and that firearm was made by a 07-FFL (Spike Tactical), so you making that receiver into a functional firearm is exempt from the CA self-made/assembled firearm laws. [11 CCR 5508(d)]

Thanks for posting the code, that's valuable info! Where do you find all this stuff? I mean, Google obviously, but I wouldn't even know where to look to find these PC and other codes.

11 CCR 5508(d) is of course what everyone's experiences is. Which, it seems to me, goes to show that the information regarding home built firearms applies just to that; home built firearms. Can you think of legal code that would insinuate modifying a 11 CCR 5508(d) firearm is manufacturing a firearm? If we can't, I just can't see how adding a gas block (for example) is manufacturing.