Is there a limit to how much a handgun receiver/frame can be modified

[Fizz]

If you buy a commercially available/PPT/Exemption handgun, can you cut out any frame parts with a serial number and weld anything to it and have it be legal or is there some arbitrary bridge where it's then manufacturing?

[M1NM]

You can't deface/remove/restamp in different area the serial number in any way. As long as the manufacture info and number stay in place you can do anything you want to it.

[swell1957]

Manufacturing will really come into play if you are doing this to resell. Doing it for yourself probably won't result in any issues, but as soon as you start modifying to sell then you'll need an 07 FFL etc.

If you buy a commercially available/PPT/Exemption handgun, can you cut out any frame parts with a serial number and weld anything to it and have it be legal or is there some arbitrary bridge where it's then manufacturing?

[Quiet]

If you buy a commercially available/PPT/Exemption handgun, can you cut out any frame parts with a serial number and weld anything to it and have it be legal or is there some arbitrary bridge where it's then manufacturing?

It's illegal (felony) to alter, remove, or deface any manufacturer's marking info (make, model, serial number, and other identifiying marks). [PC 23900]

It is legal to add additional info, but not legal to remove any info. [PC 23915(a)]



Penal Code 23900Penal Code 23915

[Ivan275]

So a stipple job on a Glock that erases the "Glock" logo on the handle is illegal? I guess you learn something every day.

Can I deface the slide where is says Glock, model and caliber?

[Fizz]

It's illegal (felony) to alter, remove, or deface any manufacturer's marking info (make, model, serial number, and other identifiying marks). [PC 23900]

It is legal to add additional info, but not legal to remove any info. [PC 23915(a)]

Penal Code 23900
Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm, without first having secured written permission from the department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 23915
(a) Any person may place or stamp on any pistol, revolver, or other firearm any number or identifying indicium, provided the number or identifying indicium does not change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer’s name, number, model, or other mark of identification.
(b) This section does not prohibit restoration by the owner of the name of the maker or model, or of the original manufacturer’s number or other mark of identification, when that restoration is authorized by the department.
(c) This section does not prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or other mark of identification upon a new firearm.

The scenario I envision is let's say you buy a Kaboomed pistol, the frame is a mangled mess. Could you cut out the section of frame that has the serial number, weld it to a block of billet and make a new pistol from.the billet, legally?

I'm not removing/obliterating the serial/Make/etc. Except that it's no longer attached to its original metal. There doesn't seem to be a clear line between removing a marking from a frame and making the frame something else.

At what point would one be 'removing' a mark vs modifying the current frame?

I think we would all agree that we could skeletonize an AR lower. However, could I remove the magwell area (except serial) buffer tube area, trigger group area, etc. Leaving only marked areas and restore it to a completely different configuration?

Is there any legal difference if the frame was made inoperable prior to rebuilding the marked pieces?

Arguably, the threshold has to exist. If I removed a marked area in a complete section many designs would still be operable and the markings are intact (but separated). I could see this being a PC violation, yet, what about using an angle grinder to 'mill' the frame TO the marked areas?

[jimbo74]

Are you serious?

Hi Mr. Becerra :wave:

[boopiejones]

I don’t think anyone would get in trouble for stippling over the little Glock logo on the lower left side of the grip, even though the penal code suggests that might technically be illegal. I would probably not stipple over the little rectangle on the upper right side of the grip that says “Glock inc Smyrna Georgia”

I’m not sure where the “threshold “ is, but remember that the serial number is linked to a registration. So I would assume that once you make changes to the frame that run afoul to that registration, it would not be legal. For example, You cannot take the dust cover with serial off a Glock 19 and fuse them on to a Glock 17 to make your own 19x. If a gun went kaboom and he frame was unable to be fixed, I assume the only option would be to report it as destroyed.

[BarrettM99]

So a stipple job on a Glock that erases the "Glock" logo on the handle is illegal? I guess you learn something every day.

Can I deface the slide where is says Glock, model and caliber?

[Fizz]

Are you serious?

Hi Mr. Becerra :wave:

I've been on the board longer than you, yet you accuse me of shilling.

[jimbo74]

You are the one asking if you can remove a serial number from one gun and put it on another...

I might as well just swap license plates on my cars..

Shill on.....

[Fizz]

You are the one asking if you can remove a serial number from one gun and put it on another...

I might as well just swap license plates on my cars..

Shill on.....

That's not the distinction or the technical legal discussion at all.

[jimbo74]

That's not the distinction or the technical legal discussion at all.

can you cut out any frame parts with a serial number and weld anything to it and have it be legal

sounds exactly what the discussion is

[Fizz]

sounds exactly what the discussion is

No. You said transfer it to another firearm, blocks of billet aren't firearms nor is welding sections of metal to a segment that contains markings necessarily a different firearm.

Think of it like a VW bug-based sandrail. The frame is what makes it a VW for legal purposes, you can twist the frame or hack it up and it's still a VW as long as you keep the VIN portions intact. Doesn't matter if you cut up the frame and turned it into a pickup truck, you would still register, insure and title it as a 19XX VW.

Regardless, you're missing the point and are likely being deliberately obtuse. I'm trying to find of there's any prohibition on modifying a frame. Others were helpful and cited PC about removal of a marking/serial from a frame which lead to discussion about the technicalities surrounding 'removal' under the PC. If I mill down the frame to the markings, arguably I didn't remove the markings but the material around it, just like a sandrail.

Your only criticism is that I'm a Becerra shill. You cite no statute or case law that says that this would be prohibited.

Now, care to cite some statute or case law?

[Jimmy's]

Find it for yourself since you don't like what people are telling you. Simple