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Springfield ILS...msh replacement question

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  • #46
    Robert1234
    Veteran Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 3078

    I don't think he's saying the frame/slide/barrel battering is a myth. More that it's a working within the margin for error thing. There's always a margin for safety built into any process that is mass produced.

    I've run a .45 for about 15k rounds with a 15 lb recoil spring, no shock buf. No battering issues, no peening. 200 gr bullet @ 850fps.

    I've run a .40 cal 1911 for about 15k rounds with a 12.5lb recoil spring, no shock buf. again, no battering, no peening. 180gr bullet @ 950fps

    And a 9mm 1911 for about 10k rounds with a 9 lb recoil spring, no buf and no problems. 115gr bullet @ 1150fps.

    All with 17lb mainsprings. All with small radiused firing pin stops.

    With regards to force, a higher recoil spring weight will apply the force against the lugs and slide stop pin, so more is not necessarily better.

    Something to consider; if you place your hand on the rear of the slide while firing, you will easily stop the slide from moving, with no injury to yourself. There's forces there, but a lot of them are eaten up by the action getting itself moving, overcoming inertia. Lower mainspring rate or not, the slide is still cocking the hammer low on the hammer. Unless you use on of those Cammer hammer things, but even then, it's only moving the fulcrum a few milimeters.

    Am I saying use a 9 lb recoil spring on a full power defensive load .45? No. What I'm saying is that these things aren't watches or delicate measuring devices, they're steel tools designed to contain explosive forces. The timing and other operational parameters aren't limited to a narrow band, they're designed to run under adverse conditions.

    And the timing is kind of locked up, the most you can do with spring rates is speed up or slow down the process, not really change it. Pull trigger, hammer drops, primer pops, barrel unlocks, barrel comes out of battery, slide reciprocates, round chambers, process starts over again. Remove any one of those actions and the whole process stops.

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    • #47
      MosinVirus
      Happily Infected
      CGN Contributor
      • Sep 2013
      • 5282

      Originally posted by FreeCalifornia
      Robert says it very well.

      Handguns have become incredibly robust nowadays, but it is still not designed to last forever. If it does, the owner didn't shoot it enough. A blow back handgun is literally a steel object constantly being thrown against the frame, and then constantly being thrown back by it's recoil spring. Of course too much either way is not good. 1 less pound of RS rate means the slide comes back a little bit faster, 1 more pound of dampening with a heavier recoil spring is one more pound of battering when the slide is closing (coming forward). But the safe operating recoil spring rate range is definitely not a dead set 16#, but rather 14# - 18# as people have experienced by screwing with their guns.

      It is almost impossible for an accurate scientific measurement as to how much a lightened recoil spring will effect the life of a 1911, since no 2 guns are the same. Not saying this is true, but let's just assume if a 14# recoil spring really meant your frame/slide will be damaged ~5,000 rounds sooner, on a quality 1911 that should have frame/slide life of at least 150,000+ rounds. Does it really matter if your gun shooting that much better? And you'll never know how much better it really shoots until you try a lightened recoil spring and time yourself against others at some sort of competition or fast paced shooting.
      I think I need to explain my current understanding.
      Here is what I think I know...

      1. Lower recoil spring power or lower hammer apring power means the slide will move back faster, opening the action faster, thereby reducing dwell time, and slamming into the frame. The barrel bottom lug will also slam unto the VIS with more force. Locking lugs may also start rounding. Even ejectors can be damaged.

      2. Slide returning to battery is slowed by the violent slamming of the round into the feed ramp. As we all know the 1911 feeding process is not a smooth affair. Standard recoil springs will help feeding. A weaker recoil spring will hinder feeding (possibly)...

      3. Flat bottom FP Stops are meant to increase dwell time and be used in combination with slides that travel too fast, instead of stepping up in recoil spring power. Some report that they help with felt recoil, but I havent noticed it. They obviously move the contact point between hammer and slide lower which makes forcing the hammer back more difficult.

      I am no expert, and I don't shoot special loads with lowet PF, and I really don't have enough personal experience to have tried everything.

      Obviously each gun is different, and I think it would be best to start in standard configuration when doing the initial MSH change, and then experiment.
      Hobbies: bla, bla, bla... Bought a Mosin Nagant... Guns, Guns, Guns...

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      • #48
        Robert1234
        Veteran Member
        • Aug 2006
        • 3078

        Originally posted by MosinVirus
        I think I need to explain my current understanding.
        Here is what I think I know...

        1. Lower recoil spring power or lower hammer apring power means the slide will move back faster, opening the action faster, thereby reducing dwell time, and slamming into the frame. The barrel bottom lug will also slam unto the VIS with more force. Locking lugs may also start rounding. Even ejectors can be damaged.

        2. Slide returning to battery is slowed by the violent slamming of the round into the feed ramp. As we all know the 1911 feeding process is not a smooth affair. Standard recoil springs will help feeding. A weaker recoil spring will hinder feeding (possibly)...

        3. Flat bottom FP Stops are meant to increase dwell time and be used in combination with slides that travel too fast, instead of stepping up in recoil spring power. Some report that they help with felt recoil, but I havent noticed it. They obviously move the contact point between hammer and slide lower which makes forcing the hammer back more difficult.

        I am no expert, and I don't shoot special loads with lowet PF, and I really don't have enough personal experience to have tried everything.

        Obviously each gun is different, and I think it would be best to start in standard configuration when doing the initial MSH change, and then experiment.
        Everything you say is or can be true. Of course it can also happen with a gun sprung as recommended by the manufacturer (16.5lb recoil spring, 23lb mainspring, standard firing pin stop) if the gun is not built correctly. With regards to rounded locking lugs, sheared lower lugs, or damaged ejectors, I would suggest that these issues are more likely to occur in a gun that is not properly fit than they are to occur in a gun that is properly fit and slightly undersprung.

        But while a slide returning to battery is slowed by the bullet coming out of the magazine and again by the same round hitting the feed-ramp, a stronger recoil spring will still yield higher slide velocity (slide moving forward, the second part of the slide movement) and forces, as the force from round being released from the magazine and hitting the feed ramp does not change based on recoil or main spring weight. That looks convoluted as I read it, but I can't think of a more clear way to write it.

        From my personal experience, a 14 or 15 lb recoil spring in a .45 ACP 1911, shooting USPSA major power factor loads (200gr bullet @ 850-900 fps) has not damaged either of my guns over a lot of rounds. I use small radius firing pin stops because I tried it and couldn't think of a reason to not do it. I have not noticed a bit of difference in recoil impulse, but I'm not really cognizant of much going on when I'm shooting cause it's almost always in a USPSA match, and I'm generally in a hurry (though the clock would say differently...)

        Same with the other guns I listed (.40 & 9mm 1911s).

        Each individual should modify their guns in a manner that they are comfortable with. I'm not here too tell anyone to do it "my way", merely to relate my experience over the time I've been playing with guns. That said, there is no damage to any of my guns from these modifications, so I doubt it's bad for a gun. And there are a lot of USPSA guys who shoot a lot more than me, and despite the reputation for being finicky, most single stack guns run well with very few malfunctions or parts breakage.

        Comment

        • #49
          Geologist
          Member
          • Feb 2017
          • 235

          This might be worth posting here:

          Last edited by Geologist; 05-14-2017, 2:36 PM.
          Fast is fine, but accuracy is final!
          You must learn to be slow in a hurry.
          Wyatt Earp

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