Best "Defensive" ammo

[Apeman88]

I'm looking for defensive ammo for use in my home and office. What's the best? Want something with good stopping power but less penatrating power... don't want the bullet to go through wall after after and hit unintended targets. Need home defensive ammo for 9mm, .40 and .45.

Been told the cops love to use SXTs cause it turn human flesh into ground beef . But is SXTs to much for home defense (too much penatration)? Also heard LA county tried to ban SXT a while back... why?

I've been using Federal Hydra Shock hollow points as my main home defense rounds for the past 20 years... should I stay with it or go with some of the higher tech Glaser Safety slug and the like?

Thanks!

Ken

[bu-bye]

I use STX's for 9mm, 40sw and 45. This is the round that by far more people have recommended. When I say "people" I'm talking police, sheriff, SWAT, and FBI. They have said its the next best thing (if not the same) since Black Talons. Hydra shocks are known for over penatration because the hole is plugged when shot through heavy clothing like jeans.

[WokMaster1]

I load the first 4 rounds (4 is death in Chinese) with Safety Glaser & followed up with Hydra shoks. 124 gr for 9mm & 230 gr in 45.ACP. I have Gen 1 Glock 19 & Para P-13. That's just me.

Isn't the SXT a renamed Black Talon? From what I heard, it works, too.

[bu-bye]

Isn't the SXT a renamed Black Talon? From what I heard, it works, too.

That the rumer but I think Winchester says it is not for legal reasons

[ZapThyCat]

IMHO, it's shot placement and how many times you can hit someone, rather than how effective a round may be....

In my opinion, 1 round black talon<3 rounds of hydroshok HP<6 rounds of regular HP...

That's just me though.

[Apeman88]

Is there a chart or graph... some sort of a report on on how each of these ammo do on stopping power... penatration power... entry and exit hole size (damage) and etc?

I know very little on the glaser stuff... I'm interested (but EXPENSIVE!!) it looks like a rubber or plastic bullet with BBs in the back?? Is this so it won't (or harder to) penatrate drywall as easily as the other loads?? The way our walls are built with simple drywall... it seems even a BB gun can go through a few of them.

Ken

[magmaster]

Black Talon and Hydra Shock for me

[Apeman88]

IMHO, it's shot placement and how many times you can hit someone, rather than how effective a round may be....

In my opinion, 1 round black talon<3 rounds of hydroshok HP<6 rounds of regular HP...

That's just me though.

I agree... hitting bones will most likely stop any handgun loads... but under stress... I would not be aiming to hit bones... just to hit the largest mass I can get my sights on... and I would not be surprised if I miss a round or 2especially if aiming for the head.

So is everyone loading their mags with a few less powerful rounds followed by something more lethal? Interesting... thought about this in the past but have not actually done this.

Ken

[lorykb]

HP vs FMJ ?

Was wondering,from a purely legal defense standpoint in the aftermath of a 100% legitimate use of lethal force with a handgun on an intruder in your home, which do you think would be the easier case to defend in court in front of a jury-

* the guy who used 'specialized' self-defense rounds [ Black Talon or whatever] which don't go through walls to injure neighbors but have a specific ' people-shooter' purpose
or
*the guy who used FMJ-nothing-special-bought-at-Wal-Mart-for-target-practice rounds, which absolutely WILL penetrate walls to potentially injure neighbors [ but didn't in this case] ?

Don't mean this to be a thread high-jack but the original post regarding which ammo is best for self defense got me thinking about how the courts/jurys view ammo specifically made for shooting people.

[WokMaster1]

Was wondering,from a purely legal defense standpoint in the wake of a 100% legitimate use of lethal force with a handgun on an intruder in your home;

which do you think would be the easier case to defend in court in front of a jury-

* the guy who used 'specialized' self-defense rounds [ Black Talon or whatever] which don't go through walls to injure neighbors
or
*the guy who used FMJ-nothing-special-bought-at-Wal-Mart-for-target-practice rounds ?

Don't mean this to be a thread high-jack but the original post regarding which ammo is best for self defense got me thinking about how the courts/jurys view ammo specifically made for self-defense.

I think that if you use what your local PD or sheriff uses(any law enforcement agency), you can always subpeona their firearms expert as to why they chose that round. I also know that certain "experts" like Massad Ayoob is a common face in the defense of homeowners vs BG shooting cases.

[WokMaster1]

That the rumer but I think Winchester says it is not for legal reasons

For the sake of being consistent with the ATF, once a Black Talon, always a Black Talon......

[m1371]

First off, you guys should read this: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

It should clarify a few things for everyone, as there's a lot of bum scoop floating around on the internet about handgun bullet effectiveness.

Do NOT go out and buy Glaser Safety Slugs, as they don't meet the penetration criteria or the permanent cavity requirements as specified in the FBI report. I've seen pics of Glasers shot into ballistic gelatin and it's less than impressive when compared to a quality HP load from a reputable manufacturer.

Go with an HP produced by a REPUTABLE manufacturer such as Winchester, Federal or Speer. There's a lot of junk ammo out there, like the Nytrillium crap and the LeMas "super-death-touch" stuff. If it's been tested by a LE agency and approved for carry by numerous PDs, that should be an indication of what is good to go and what is not.

As for choosing FMJ over HP ammo, well that's already on the list of dumb things I've heard. And yes, I've run into guys doing protective work who were packing FMJ instead of quality HP ammo.

The only place for FMJ is on the range when you're practice shooting.

As for the whole "Black Talon" thing, there's also some confusion going on here. This should clear it up (scroll down to "Winchester Black Talon Revisited"): http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm

Winchester Black Talon Revisited

There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:

Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.

The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.

(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)

The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.

The current LE offering from Winchester is their Ranger-T series. This is generally the loading most LE agencies are using. Winchester has a nifty ballistics comparison table for the Ranger-T ammo here: http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce.../testing.aspx#

[PistolKidd]

I have some Hydrashoks in 9mm and 40.. but Im rotating these out for some Speer GoldDots.. people on the Sigforum, (for whatever reason) are recommending them..

I agree almost completely with shot placement.. I think most calibers will stop anyone if placed in the right location.. right now, im using my Sig P225 for my home protection gun and i feel completely fine wiht that, but when i get a chance..im going to practice with my 1911 and use that..

[m1371]

I use STX's for 9mm, 40sw and 45. This is the round that by far more people have recommended. When I say "people" I'm talking police, sheriff, SWAT, and FBI. They have said its the next best thing (if not the same) since Black Talons. Hydra shocks are known for over penatration because the hole is plugged when shot through heavy clothing like jeans.

This isn't necessarily true.

ANY hollowpoint has the potential to have its expansion cavity plugged when shot through a barrier, regardless of whether it's denim or wallboard. This essentially turns the HP into a FMJ projectile and increases its potential to "over-penetrate".

The over-penetration issue that the HydraShoks exhibited was due to the fact the center post acted as a penetrator after the HP had expanded and allowed it to keep going once it had struck its intended target.

[rips31]

i use speer gold dot in my 40sw pistols. however, my first choice is my 5.7x28. little risk of over-penetration and full energy transfer w/yaw&tumble versus expansion.