Can a gun store turn down a PPT request??

[RECCE556]

1)when people come into gun shops to do a PPT, dealers should be doing there best to upsell, ammo and other accessory. if all they get out of a sale is 10 bucks then they aren't very good sales people. and probably in the wrong business.

Same can be said about a customer buying a new gun so that's a moot point because it could go either way.

2) handing someone a background check paper to fill out, and taking a copy of the id doesn't seem very hard to do when, when talking to other customers. yeah at some point you will have to give the customer a few moments of undivided attention, but if your busy with other customers, simply making them wait a few moments to finish up while your busy, is understandable.

Let's see, what have you left out? Double checking the 4473 because more times than not, someone messes that up, entering the buyer's info into the computer DROS system along with the gun info (in the case of a handgun PPT), then hand writing the entry of the firearm into your books, storing it (taking up space) for at least 10 days and sometimes longer all while making sure it doesn't get messed up (esp. guns that come with no case), hand filing the 4473 and all the other documents, going through all your DROSes for the month to find the buyer's 4473 when they come to pick up, fingerprinting the buyer, giving the buyer the handgun safety drill (if necessary), having the buyer fill out that form along with a safe form, filling out the rest of the 4473 (the part that buyers never see), checking the gun out of your books which requires you hand write all their info...and I probably left a few things out. All that eats up time and when a shop is busy, that eats into face time with customers who are there to buy. And don't forget, all the forms better be ON POINT...the FFL has to make sure to dot all i's and cross all the t's because the DOJ/ATF/etc. are just looking for reasons to ding them and shut them down.

Plus, I've seen buyers who are there ready to drop say $2000 on some gear and they don't really like it when you put them on hold to deal with someone who isn't even buying anything from the store...I've seen those people walk out so the store lost a $2000 sale to handle a $35 ($10 profit) PPT. If you're the store owner, which would rather loose? A high dollar sale or a $10 PPT (saying everything else is the same...both parties can become one time visitors or life long customers)

3) as far as customers wanting to be treated like kings, some people unfortunately act like that. but some of that is due to customers coming into gun shops and being treated with arrogance and incompetence.

Chick vs. Egg. If you've ever worked in retail, you know the kind of wackos you get. Gun business is no different...you get people who just want to talk your ear off about everything and anything and people who spend hours extracting knowledge about products and then going to buy it on the internet...so are these gun shops the way are because of the customer or in spite of the customer?

i dont mean to put down any shops that do there job, because there are a lot of shops that i really do like, and try to spend at those shops. but they're are also shops that i dont like at all, and if those shops died, i would probably smile.

If every single CalGunner could get a wish where they could close any ONE shop that they didn't like (for whatever reason), there would be NO gun shops in CA (and a few other states would be missing a few too....CTD, MGS, CDNN, Brownells, etc...) so be careful what you wish for. Consider the gun shops in your immediate area. Now imagine them gone...where would you go to do your transfers, ppt's, purchases, etc.? You'd have to drive to the next county and what if the shops in that county closed down because the people in that county hate their shops too and wanted them closed down...gets pretty grim, eh?

The bottom line is that in CA, as much as the customer is doing the shops a favor by bringing them business, the shops are doing the customers a favor by being in business...and the truth of the matter is, the a-hole type customers need the a-hole shops more than the a-hole shops need the a-hole customers. Every time I go into Retting, there are a lot of people in there. If my friends and I tell them to F-off, guess what? They still have plenty of business and they don't need to deal with my attitude but now because I don't want to buy from them, I now have to drive a lot further (in LA traffic no less) to get to another shop. Gun shops aren't like liquor stores, they're not on every corner in this state....

[lunde]

This thread is going nowhere, in the sense that there is no resolution. What we're discussing is a balancing act, and unfortunately, consumers and dealers are caught in the middle. The laws of this state simply require that face-to-face transfers be effected through a licensed dealer, and the fact that the process has become convoluted and time-consuming certainly does not help. And, given the rate at which firearms and ammunition are currently being purchased (thanks to our Commander in Chief), which also means that the number of PPTs is going up, the chance of encountering such conflicts becomes great.

My suggestion is patience, especially given today's climate. The customers who are looking to spend their hard-earned cash on something in dealer inventory need to understand and accept that the dealer is also obligated to effect PPTs. And, the customers who are there to effect PPTs need to understand that the dealer, though obligated to effect their PPT, also needs to attend to other customers so that they can remain in business (otherwise they would be unable to effect PPTs). Again, patience is key. Those effecting a PPT should be prepared to be more patient. What would be fair would be a line, and to serve customers in a queue.

But, I think we can all agree that $35 should be the only fee that is charged for PPTs. A dealer would be out of their mind to charge less, but they should also not charge more. Charging $25 for the safety demonstration is an example of violating this. And, it violates the trust that should be between the dealer and the consumer.

Whenever I prepare to effect a PPT, whether it is to buy or to sell, I always call ahead to the dealer to find out the best time to do it. This way, you can find out their policies beforehand, and also go there at a time when they are less busy.

[BigMac]

The maximum that they're allowed to charge per state law is $35. They should at the very least be reported to the DOJ.

That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed

[bohoki]

That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed

uh wrongo if you are going to tack on other charges then the private party transfer is more than $35

its not $35 maximum for doing paperwork and dros it is $35 maximum for a "private party transfer"

how about if you waive the storage fee if the seller stores it for the 10 days would that be allowed?

[RECCE556]

GREAT post Lunde. I think you pretty much covered it much more eloquently then I did.

This thread is going nowhere, in the sense that there is no resolution. What we're discussing is a balancing act, and unfortunately, consumers and dealers are caught in the middle. The laws of this state simply require that face-to-face transfers be effected through a licensed dealer, and the fact that the process has become convoluted and time-consuming certainly does not help. And, given the rate at which firearms and ammunition are currently being purchased (thanks to our Commander in Chief), which also means that the number of PPTs is going up, the chance of encountering such conflicts becomes great.

My suggestion is patience, especially given today's climate. The customers who are looking to spend their hard-earned cash on something in dealer inventory need to understand and accept that the dealer is also obligated to effect PPTs. And, the customers who are there to effect PPTs need to understand that the dealer, though obligated to effect their PPT, also needs to attend to other customers so that they can remain in business (otherwise they would be unable to effect PPTs). Again, patience is key. Those effecting a PPT should be prepared to be more patient. What would be fair would be a line, and to serve customers in a queue.

But, I think we can all agree that $35 should be the only fee that is charged for PPTs. A dealer would be out of their mind to charge less, but they should also not charge more. Charging $25 for the safety demonstration is an example of violating this. And, it violates the trust that should be between the dealer and the consumer.

Whenever I prepare to effect a PPT, whether it is to buy or to sell, I always call ahead to the dealer to find out the best time to do it. This way, you can find out their policies beforehand, and also go there at a time when they are less busy.

[jasilva]

If there are no other burger joints to go to and you really want a burger, then yes, open up your store....my point is that a lot of people who cry about this or that have NO IDEA what's it's like on the other side....Just try working at a FFL and then come back here and see if you have the same opinion...

If it's that miserable then find a new line of work. Your misery is not an excuse to be a dick to customers.

As to your prior post about not getting any good advertising from being decent about PPTs. I had a PPT to do in January, I tried Guns and Fishing and Stuff in Vacaville. The dick behind the counter was a FUD spreading dick with a bad attitude. I no longer shop there and tell everyone I know what dicks they are. I found Metco in Fairfield, Paul was extremely polite and helpful and took me in the order I arrived in his store. Other buyers waited till he was done with me. I was so impressed I've bought a Sig 226 from him, a range bag and ammo, plus my next firearm purchase will be through him. I also tell everyone I know and post it on this board how top notch Metco is to deal with. So one dick behind a counter has cost his company my $1600(bought another gun at a show from another dealer even though GSF had it in stock and I drove an hour on pick up day to get it.) to date I've spent elsewhere plus I've bad mouthed them to everyone I know including on this board and I drive right by them on my way to Metco. So you can make excuses for dicks if you want but the simple fact of business is the customer is always right and customer service makes or breaks a business.

[ke6guj]

That is true. You can only charge $35.00 for a PPT. Nothing in the law says I cannot charge another 100.00 storage fee, safe handeling fee etc.

That is where you get to vote with your wallet.

No Irvington Arms does not have any extra fees. We do however require you are not walking into the store 10 seconds before we flip the sign to closed

So you are saying that a storage or safe handling fee is not prohibited by 12082. Sure sounds like it says that the purchaser can be charged a dealer fee up to $10 per firearm, and that no other fee may be charged for that transfer.

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
<snip>
. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section , except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

[RECCE556]

If it's that miserable then find a new line of work. Your misery is not an excuse to be a dick to customers.

You're not getting it. What I'm saying is that a LOT of customers have no clue what it takes to be a FFL and are making judgments w/o knowing both sides of the counter.

As to your prior post about not getting any good advertising from being decent about PPTs. I had a PPT to do in January, I tried Guns and Fishing and Stuff in Vacaville. The dick behind the counter was a FUD spreading dick with a bad attitude. I no longer shop there and tell everyone I know what dicks they are....So one dick behind a counter has cost his company my $1600(bought another gun at a show from another dealer even though GSF had it in stock and I drove an hour on pick up day to get it.) to date I've spent elsewhere plus I've bad mouthed them to everyone I know including on this board and I drive right by them on my way to Metco..

I'm definitely not defending the spreading of FUD nor being a dick, that's whole 'nother subject. Also, this is ONE INCIDENT specific to YOU. How do you know another customer didn't walk in 10 minutes after you and spend a good $5K at GSF? So does your $1.6K sale really matter at that point?

This kind of thing reminds of the "gas pump strike"....yeah, don't get gas on Thursday and that'll show the oil companies!!

Case in point, Martin Retting. Known to be a-holes by Calgunners and a lot people in the area yet they are still in business and still doing well. A PPT customer gets mad and leaves, Retting looses a $10 profit...but at the same time, there's a customer who picks up a brand new NightHawk 1911 for $2600. Who lost there? As much as you like to think that your one incident really matters, the bottom line is that it doesn't. You don't know everyone in the world and you can't stop anyone else from shopping at GSF. Sure, maybe you and your friends don't and some people here on Calguns after reading your post but guess what? Other people who don't know you and aren't on Calguns still shop there. Which do you think is the larger crowd?

I had a dealer that I had been going to for YEARS not administer a HSC for a friend of mine to do a PPT between him and I because they didn't have enough HSC cards. They were only doing it for people actually buying a handgun there. I was pissed about it but guess what? Nothing I can do. If I need to buy a pistol that they have in stock and no one else does, I'm going to have to buy it from them or not get one.

Bottom line is that a lot of consumers need a reality check. There are WAY, WAY more gun buyers than FFL's out there and with the added pressure of liberal CA authorities, there's probably going to be even less FFL's in the future.

[jasilva]

You're not getting it. What I'm saying is that a LOT of customers have no clue what it takes to be a FFL and are making judgments w/o knowing both sides of the counter.

I don't need to know, I go into a business, I'm always polite and respectful of anyone I meet until given a reason to act otherwise, if I am treated the same I do business there, if not I don't darken their door again. I don't give a **** if the owner's dog just died, if he's open for business he can act like an adult, if his attitude is bad he needs to stay home until able to act appropriately. In other words there is no excuse for acting like a dick to anyone.

I'm definitely not defending the spreading of FUD nor being a dick, that's whole 'nother subject. Also, this is ONE INCIDENT specific to YOU. How do you know another customer didn't walk in 10 minutes after you and spend a good $5K at GSF? So does your $1.6K sale really matter at that point?

Your not seeing beyond the short term. That was $1.6k in two months PLUS however many others decided to go elsewhere. Not mention $1.6k is during my off season, fishing, hunting and shooting combined is more like 10-15k per year that is now going elsewhere. So if this happens with say one in 100 customers you've got a hit to the ol' profit margin.

This kind of thing reminds of the "gas pump strike"....yeah, don't get gas on Thursday and that'll show the oil companies!!

Again your not getting it. I'm not just avoiding them on Thursday. They've lost me permanently and at least a dozen or so of my friends. If that happens with one in 10 PPT customers suddenly your a known ******* establishment and the profit margin slips.


Case in point, Martin Retting. Known to be a-holes by Calgunners and a lot people in the area yet they are still in business and still doing well. A PPT customer gets mad and leaves, Retting looses a $10 profit...but at the same time, there's a customer who picks up a brand new NightHawk 1911 for $2600. Who lost there? As much as you like to think that your one incident really matters, the bottom line is that it doesn't. You don't know everyone in the world and you can't stop anyone else from shopping at GSF. Sure, maybe you and your friends don't and some people here on Calguns after reading your post but guess what? Other people who don't know you and aren't on Calguns still shop there. Which do you think is the larger crowd?

Sure one PPT may not be a big deal but ill will adds up over the years. Just ask the Republicans.

I had a dealer that I had been going to for YEARS not administer a HSC for a friend of mine to do a PPT between him and I because they didn't have enough HSC cards. They were only doing it for people actually buying a handgun there. I was pissed about it but guess what? Nothing I can do. If I need to buy a pistol that they have in stock and no one else does, I'm going to have to buy it from them or not get one.

I guess if the bottom line is all that matters to you then it's not a big deal to be **** on and then return for another mouth full.

Bottom line is that a lot of consumers need a reality check. There are WAY, WAY more gun buyers than FFL's out there and with the added pressure of liberal CA authorities, there's probably going to be even less FFL's in the future.

Things never stay static and the FFL's that think they'll always have the power will get an awakening. All it takes is an FFL to treat one in 10 customers this way and suddenly the profit margin starts to slip. Locally GF&S had competition from The Shooting Gallery until they lost a couple big customers for their range and stopped stocking what people wanted most, customers went elsewhere and they are now gone. Do you really think that FFL's are exempt from customer service concerns? Maybe you can play that way short term but eventually the market will shift and then it's time to pay the piper.

Spin it however you want but eventually bad customer service catches up. Lots of examples over the years of businesses with a great product but ****ty customer service that are now tits up.

[guns_and_labs]

Spin it however you want but eventually bad customer service catches up. Lots of examples over the years of businesses with a great product but ****ty customer service that are now tits up.

But what about the DMV? Great product (my license looks really nice), lousy service, still in business.

Hey, I know. Let's have the DMV do all PPTs! They have experience with detail-oriented bureaucratic transactions, they are used to charging piddly amounts for time-consuming exercises, and they don't care if you complain. That, I'm sure, will satisfy all. Won't it? Just let the government take care of it.

[RECCE556]

In other words there is no excuse for acting like a dick to anyone.

I'm not saying it's OK to be a dick to customers but once again, you need to work on the other side of the counter to see the whole picture.

Your not seeing beyond the short term. That was $1.6k in two months PLUS however many others decided to go elsewhere. Not mention $1.6k is during my off season, fishing, hunting and shooting combined is more like 10-15k per year that is now going elsewhere. So if this happens with say one in 100 customers you've got a hit to the ol' profit margin.

AGAIN, you're not seeing beyond YOUR OWN CASE. That $5K customer has the potential to come back and spend $30K a year...

Again your not getting it. I'm not just avoiding them on Thursday. They've lost me permanently and at least a dozen or so of my friends. If that happens with one in 10 PPT customers suddenly your a known ******* establishment and the profit margin slips.

And yet again, you're not getting it. Even if you and 10 of your friends never go back to Shell, guess what? 11 other people will. And gun stores get new people every day, especially in today's climate.

Sure one PPT may not be a big deal but ill will adds up over the years. Just ask the Republicans.

I agree, the POTENTIAL is there that a PPT customer will spend a billion dollars at the shop but the SAME POTENTIAL exists for a $2000 purchase customer AND there's a $2000 sale already GUARANTEED.

I guess if the bottom line is all that matters to you then it's not a big deal to be sh*t on and then return for another mouth full.

See, the problem is that you are getting your "feelings" hurt because the gunshop won't bow down to you. THIS IS THE EXACT "SERVE ME" ATTITUDE I'M TALKING ABOUT. They just delayed our PPT until they could get more HSC cards, yes, that sucks but you know, does it really matter in the end? We were able to PPT the gun and now he has it. If the store wasn't there, then what? I illegally sell the gun to him?

Things never stay static and the FFL's that think they'll always have the power will get an awakening. All it takes is an FFL to treat one in 10 customers this way and suddenly the profit margin starts to slip. Locally GF&S had competition from The Shooting Gallery until they lost a couple big customers for their range and stopped stocking what people wanted most, customers went elsewhere and they are now gone. Do you really think that FFL's are exempt from customer service concerns? Maybe you can play that way short term but eventually the market will shift and then it's time to pay the piper.

Again, you're basing your WHOLE argument on the assumption that there are plenty of FFLs to go to and those FFL's will always be willing to bow down to you. Locally, we had two FFL's shut down (not CS related). Just be glad that's not happening in your area....yet...

[Trader Jack]

The reality is that the FFL should be sending a thank you to the DOJ for every PPT they get.

I cannot imagine any other retail business that would cry about having the gov't force customers into their store. Some people pay huge dollars advertising to get people through the door.

You have got to joking

[Amacias805]

Same can be said about a customer buying a new gun so that's a moot point because it could go either way.

yes, but you keep assuming that you have other customers that are in the shop. how many times is the shop empty and the customer is still treated as if they're a burden.

Let's see, what have you left out? Double checking the 4473 because more times than not, someone messes that up, entering the buyer's info into the computer DROS system along with the gun info (in the case of a handgun PPT), then hand writing the entry of the firearm into your books, storing it (taking up space) for at least 10 days and sometimes longer all while making sure it doesn't get messed up (esp. guns that come with no case), hand filing the 4473 and all the other documents, going through all your DROSes for the month to find the buyer's 4473 when they come to pick up, fingerprinting the buyer, giving the buyer the handgun safety drill (if necessary), having the buyer fill out that form along with a safe form, filling out the rest of the 4473 (the part that buyers never see), checking the gun out of your books which requires you hand write all their info...and I probably left a few things out. All that eats up time and when a shop is busy, that eats into face time with customers who are there to buy. And don't forget, all the forms better be ON POINT...the FFL has to make sure to dot all i's and cross all the t's because the DOJ/ATF/etc. are just looking for reasons to ding them and shut them down

while yes, there is alot to the transfer, but again much of what you described isn't all up front, and can be taken in steps.

Plus, I've seen buyers who are there ready to drop say $2000 on some gear and they don't really like it when you put them on hold to deal with someone who isn't even buying anything from the store...I've seen those people walk out so the store lost a $2000 sale to handle a $35 ($10 profit) PPT. If you're the store owner, which would rather loose? A high dollar sale or a $10 PPT (saying everything else is the same...both parties can become one time visitors or life long customers)

I know a thing or two about losing a sale. yeah it sucks, but one of the things i've learned, is that the simplest interactions can save a sale, something as simple as saying "hello" "thank you for you patients" "ill be with you in a moment " - are the so simple, and can save so many sales, but i still see people not doing it, whether it be at a gun shop, or any sales situation, people do not greet the customer.

Chick vs. Egg. If you've ever worked in retail, you know the kind of wackos you get. Gun business is no different...you get people who just want to talk your ear off about everything and anything and people who spend hours extracting knowledge about products and then going to buy it on the internet...so are these gun shops the way are because of the customer or in spite of the customer?

yeah, i've dealt with a few crazies before. as far as the people that buy off line, sometimes there's no way around that, other times its more important that you dont have an arrogance that your the only gun shop in town, and take all the steps of a sale when with a customer.

If every single CalGunner could get a wish where they could close any ONE shop that they didn't like (for whatever reason), there would be NO gun shops in CA (and a few other states would be missing a few too....CTD, MGS, CDNN, Brownells, etc...)

True, you are correct in that aspect, all of us have shops that we dont like.

so be careful what you wish for. Consider the gun shops in your immediate area. Now imagine them gone...where would you go to do your transfers, ppt's, purchases, etc.? You'd have to drive to the next county and what if the shops in that county closed down because the people in that county hate their shops too and wanted them closed down...gets pretty grim, eh?

well i see your point. all my business that i've bought in stores has gone to 10 percent firearms in Taft.. 2-1/2 hour trip. why, because i dont like any of the shops in my area, and i liked dealing with them. so i spend 5 hours driving every time i buy a gun. does it bother me, yes. if i had a choice to spend the time driving or deal with some incompetent dicks... every time i would chose to drive!

The bottom line is that in CA, as much as the customer is doing the shops a favor by bringing them business, the shops are doing the customers a favor by being in business...and the truth of the matter is, the a-hole type customers need the a-hole shops more than the a-hole shops need the a-hole customers. Every time I go into Retting, there are a lot of people in there. If my friends and I tell them to F-off, guess what? They still have plenty of business and they don't need to deal with my attitude but now because I don't want to buy from them, I now have to drive a lot further (in LA traffic no less) to get to another shop. Gun shops aren't like liquor stores, they're not on every corner in this state....

wrong again! any shop that thinks there doing the customer a favor by being in business has a bad mindset, and probably isn't doing the business they should or wouldbe doing if they had the right mindset.

the nice thing about America is that we live in a Capitalist country. if enough stores close up, that creates a void. that void would be filled by someone who sees an opportunity to make money by filling that void!

[jhaselton]

Wild Sports in Organgevale, CA will not do a private party transfer. They tell you no and refer you to J&G Guns. I should print this out for my next PPT and take it there just to make them do it.

[RECCE556]

yes, but you keep assuming that you have other customers that are in the shop. how many times is the shop empty and the customer is still treated as if they're a burden.

Yes, I am assuming that mostly because I'm using Rettings as an example and every time I've been in there, there's people there. I've never been there when it's completely empty. If the shop is completely empty then there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON not to service a PPT.

while yes, there is a lot to the transfer, but again much of what you described isn't all up front, and can be taken in steps.

True, but it takes the same amount of time and effort to *fully* process a PPT as it does a sale which is my point.

I know a thing or two about losing a sale. yeah it sucks, but one of the things i've learned, is that the simplest interactions can save a sale, something as simple as saying "hello" "thank you for you patients" "ill be with you in a moment " - are the so simple, and can save so many sales, but i still see people not doing it, whether it be at a gun shop, or any sales situation, people do not greet the customer.

I absolutely agree. I see no reason to be unpleasant to a customer. The scenarios I'm thinking of involve irate "serve me now" customers where no amount of kindness will fix their need to have immediate service.

yeah, i've dealt with a few crazies before. as far as the people that buy off line, sometimes there's no way around that, other times its more important that you dont have an arrogance that your the only gun shop in town, and take all the steps of a sale when with a customer.

Absolutely. There shouldn't be arrogance that you're the only shop in town but when you get a customer that is bent to have it his way, you can't be surprised when the shop isn't willing to bend. Then you get that irate customer come on here and complain about how sh*tty the shop was from their perspective. Again, this goes back to the "entitlement" attitude that some customers have.

well i see your point. all my business that i've bought in stores has gone to 10 percent firearms in Taft.. 2-1/2 hour trip. why, because i dont like any of the shops in my area, and i liked dealing with them. so i spend 5 hours driving every time i buy a gun. does it bother me, yes. if i had a choice to spend the time driving or deal with some incompetent dicks... every time i would chose to drive!

Well I'd rather deal with a **** shop and not have to drive 2.5 hours each way (and in LA, that's just going from downtown to the westside! )

wrong again! any shop that thinks there doing the customer a favor by being in business has a bad mindset, and probably isn't doing the business they should or wouldbe doing if they had the right mindset.

Well we can agree to disagree. Even from a customer standpoint, I feel that I'm lucky to have a shop near me. Especially if that shop sells EBR's and is willing to do out-of-state transfers. If I was stuck with ONLY a Turners by me, I'd be screwed...the hobby wouldn't be the same, at least for me....but man, I'd have one MUTHAF*CKING NICE over/under shotgun though!

the nice thing about America is that we live in a Capitalist country. if enough stores close up, that creates a void. that void would be filled by someone who sees an opportunity to make money by filling that void!

ABSOLUTELY AGREE but the gun business isn't like opening up a little clothing store. Many cities won't allow a gun shop to open and the ones that are there, they're trying to close (at least in SoCal). So even though there might be a HUGE market there, if you can't get the licenses and the approval of the city to open up, what are you going do?

Do you know how well a EBR dealer would do in West Los Angeles? Try getting the city of LA to approve your business license and even if by some miracle you did get (which is I know is 100% impossible at this point), you'd have LAPD's notorious "Gun Unit" breathing down your back...oh, and by having a FFL, you're own personal collection (at your house) is subject to inspection...you know anyone willing to deal with all that for $10/transfer?