First handgun questions

[Sleighter]

This should be a good lesson for you as you become more involved in the gun culture: take everything a gun store clerk says with a grain of salt. You will get way more BAD information from a gun store clerk than good information. Occasionally you will find a clerk with some good info, but remember that their primary focus is to sell you something, not to help you get what is best for you.

For example: saying that the glock 20 is the best gun that they have is ludicrous. That statement can't be backed up by any more substantive than "bigger is better." There is so much more that goes into ballistics then bullet weight and size, but that's a topic all for itself.

His second suggestion of a subcompact is also a bad idea for a beginner. Get a gun with a full grip. Learn proper marksmanship fundamentals like grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment. All of those things are best done with a full size pistol. Not a gun designed for concealed carry. Also, there's no reason for a .40S&W in a sub-compact for someone just learning. Get a 9mm because it's cheaper. And cheaper means that you'll be able to practice more...and practice is what will make you a better shooter, not the caliber of the gun or how many other world champion shooters shoot that gun.

[philobeddoe]

27? How small are your hands?

A Glock 20 or a 27? Stop asking for advice at gun stores.

[Sleighter]

I found the 22 kits online but I dont want to do any gunsmith work, i dont have any experience

From my reading it look like the 9mm would be a good way to go.

So far, I see others to compare next time at the store?
Glock 9mm
XD 9mm
M&P 9mm

I also see a H K VP9? It seems in the same price range $580 is that also a good one?

Glock 9mm
XD 9mm
M&P 9mm

^This is a good list of striker fired pistols. I would also add the following for you to check out in a gun store:

Sig - SP2022
Sig - P226 or P229 in 9mm
CZ - 75b, p-01, sp-01

Those are all great guns and have different pros and cons. They also have very different controls and ergonomics. Once you pick up a few you'll find which one feels right to you.

[5ZS]

Since best is mentioned, must reference latest poll with best in the question: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/p...ts&pollid=8995 Ah well, what the heck does actual Calguns members really know, right? Yea, don't think any voted actually have guns.

Glock rocks!
Competition shooters, if you go to a GSSF competition match, you will see mostly Glock's and Glock has dominated victory!

Seriously, just keep on shooting and get what fits you. You wanted a .22, get a .22! and stop listening to random people. You should have learned on the AR15 panic time, sorry man! Take shooting instructions from seasoned shooters is good though -but what fits you, not us.

[Leland Yee]

This should be a good lesson for you as you become more involved in the gun culture: take everything a gun store clerk says with a grain of salt. You will get way more BAD information from a gun store clerk than good information. Occasionally you will find a clerk with some good info, but remember that their primary focus is to sell you something, not to help you get what is best for you.

For example: saying that the glock 20 is the best gun that they have is ludicrous. That statement can't be backed up by any more substantive than "bigger is better." There is so much more that goes into ballistics then bullet weight and size, but that's a topic all for itself.

His second suggestion of a subcompact is also a bad idea for a beginner. Get a gun with a full grip. Learn proper marksmanship fundamentals like grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment. All of those things are best done with a full size pistol. Not a gun designed for concealed carry. Also, there's no reason for a .40S&W in a sub-compact for someone just learning. Get a 9mm because it's cheaper. And cheaper means that you'll be able to practice more...and practice is what will make you a better shooter, not the caliber of the gun or how many other world champion shooters shoot that gun.

My friend was helping me with tips on how to shoot fast for home defense but this was my best target of the day.

All i was trying to do was go center mass as fast as i can and I got all 10 shots on my target and its pretty much center mass.

its hard to control when trying to shoot all 10 rounds as fast as you can makes you appreciate the shooters online

[HibikiR]

So far, I see others to compare next time at the store?
Glock 9mm
XD 9mm
M&P 9mm

I also see a H K VP9? It seems in the same price range $580 is that also a good one?

The Glock, XD, and M&P are all geared for the same market and perform similarly to me.

BUT, you can't get an M&P (standard size) or VP9 from a dealer in California because of the Roster of Handguns. They must be sold to you by another Californian via PPT, and expect a mark-up in price because of the limited supply that can legally be sold in California.

Between the Glock and the XD, besides going with one with a 4" barrel figure out which one fits better in your hands and which has better sights in your opinion. Both can be easily rented in any decent indoor shooting range.

[CandG]

I found some "agency trade-in" beretta 92's (9mm) for like $450 in an ad I got in the mail today. They're great guns, and less felt recoil than a glock - since I'm noticing that you don't seem to want much/any recoil. 22 is the only way to (almost) avoid recoil altogether, but you'll get bored quickly if that's your only pistol. And as others mentioned, a 22 is a poor choice for home defense. Better than nothing, but honestly i'd reach for pepper spray first if those were my only 2 choices.

9mm can be picked up online for as low as $0.18/round if you look around (someone can help point you in the right direction I'm sure), 22 is currently running about $0.12/round if you buy it locally, and you probably won't even find it on the shelves.

22's are fun pistols, and good for practicing with, but it's not a good choice for a first/only pistol in my opinion.

Edit: Cost shouldn't matter anyways, it's all covered by your campaign contributions!

[jsigone]

LOL at the gun shop guy!!! You need to go to range, rent a CZ SP01 or P01, G34, G17 & XD9. These are all $450-650 options, don't let $100 difference sway the final say, that's like 2 range trips of 200 rounds per visit.

G27 is FAR from a comp gun, that gun was designed to carry under your shirt at the movies in another state. If you want a comp/range gun get the G34 or settle for the G17. Grip diameter is the same from 17/19/27/34. Grip length is different. Also be careful of CZ, you will likely buy two, same with glocks because of the price point.

VP9s are $1000 here in socal via PPT
MP9/40/45s are 600-900 pending what slide is on them and only PPT
Sig320 is 800-1500 via PPT


Have fun renting/shopping & pew pew!!!

[Garv]

Take a training class with a professional instructor.
He will get you to tighten up your groupings on those targets by adjusting your grip and stance and make sure you really understand gun safety.
How many yards out were you at the range?

[Leland Yee]

Take a training class with a professional instructor.
He will get you to tighten up your groupings on those targets by adjusting your grip and stance and make sure you really understand gun safety.
How many yards out were you at the range?

I think the distance was 9-10 feet for CQB

[crono35]

I can't tell if this is a real thread or not...

but assuming it's real, you need to decide if you want to go with a semi automatic or a revolver first.

[SonofWWIIDI]

Lots of good advice so far.
Take a class
Rent some different guns
Decide your budget
Meet up with some other folks who already shoot
Skip the .22 (for now) and get a 9mm

My advice is to not shoot a good quality 1911 in 9mm. Because once you do that, the glock will pale in comparison.

Good luck!

[tacticalcity]

With that particular user name it is hard not to assume there is some sort of joke being pulled. But I will bite.

I personally am a big fan of Glocks. The reason I like them is that they are very easy to learn how to shoot. They were designed not to be overly complicated or confusing.

1. No thumb safety because shooters where forgetting to flip them off when drawing under the stress of a gun fight, which often comes as a complete surprise. Instead there is a trigger safety, which a finger activates automatically but things like clothing catching on the side of the trigger won't.

2. It has a short medium-light trigger pull that is he same from your first shot to your last. This means you can master it very quickly. Still gonna take a whole lot of practice. But a fraction of what guns like the Beretta M9 or most CZs for example would take you to master. You will get to the point of being very fast while still be accurate if the pull is the same eash time. Because shooting at speed while mastering two distinct trigger pulls like the DA/SA guns have is considerably more complicated than it sounds.

3. It has a short rest. The trigger reset is how far you have to release the trigger before you can pull it again and fire the gun. A lot of guns, especially competitors to the Glock have VERY long trigger resets. This is a bad thing. Experienced shooters know they want to move their finger as little as possible when resetting the trigger for follow up shots. The shoot the first shot, and do not release the trigger but keep it "trapped to the rear" by continuing to squeeze the trigger until their sights get back on target. Then they release the trigger until they feel the click of it resetting. This is all done in the time it took me to type one letter in this sentence. At that speed, you want to move your finger as little as possible or you end up pulling yourself off target. Finger movement equals hand movement equals gun moving off target.

3. The controls that should be easy to reach are easy to reach. The controls that should take slightly more effort lest you be dropping mags in the middle of a gunfight by accident are slightly more difficult to reach. And like the trigger, they are the same on every Glock model under the sun. Master one Glock, and you pretty much mastered them all. So your full size duty gun works just like your concealed carry ankle gun. Once you develop that muscle memory, and get the fundamentals under your belt, you can switch between those different size guns and not have to worry that the trigger or action is totally different or that there is some sort of safety feature that works different. With the exception of the size, everything is the same. Not to mention, nice simple and easy to use.

4. They are easy to clean. Fewer parts than most guns. Something goes wrong, which is very rare, you'll be able to watch a quick video online and fix it without breaking a sweat. This includes making upgrades. Which are almost always drop-in and easy as pie to install. That might not sound like a big deal but it is. A lot of guns, including my second favorite the 1911 are a major ***** to work on, take apart, and clean and impossible to upgrade without special tools and skills. Very few things on a 1911 are drop-in like they are on a Glock.

5. These days you can get a holster for just about any gun if you want to spend enough money. For a Glock, there are countless very nice options at cheap prices. Not to mention a plethera of upgrade accessories. The Glock doesn't need them. It is great right out of the box. But if you want to monkey with, you'll have no shortage of options. I recommend enjoying it stock for a while. Especially if it is for self defense.

Complaints I don't think matter...

1. People think they are ugly. I know I used to you. But when you see how well they work, especially when you're first starting to take courses and really get into shooting, suddenly they pretty damn sexy. Because that lack of frustration shooters with other guns are experiencing is absolutely LOVELY. As is how quickly and easily your skill level progresses compared to those with other guns putting in the same amount of effort.

2. People say they are not as comfortable as other guns. Ok, so some guns are so comfortable they feel like a massage from a topless playmate. But they are difficult as hell to shoot. What's more important? The Glock is comfortable. Not topless playmate rubbing on you comfortable. But comfortable. Certainly comfortable enough for a gun fight.

3. Grip angle causes it not to point in right. This just means it is difficult than whatever you happened to master previously. You've got muscle memory built up on how to shoot something else. And you are doing what worked on that something else but since the new gun (which just happens to be a Glock in this case) is not that old gun, it's not working. That won't apply to you. You haven't spend decades shooting something else. For you it is all new. Whatever you start out learning to use, and they are all different, is going to point in just fine for you. Actually they will all point in like crap until you learn how to point in with whatever gun you buy. That's part of learning how to shoot a handgun.

4. It's frame is made of plastic. Plastic can be a good thing. Where metal relies on rigidness for its strength plastic relies on its flexibility. Plastic doesn't rust. Plastic is light weight. Which if you are carrying it on your hip day in and day out can be a blessing. Less pain killers to pop at the end of the day. I've owned some very old Glocks. Police trade-ins that were beat to hell and I had to refinish the slides. The plastic frames, looked damn near new.

Wrap-up: Any gun will do just for target shooting. You can cheat and skip the DA pull on DA/SA guns and just enjoy the SA pull which is easy to shoot and be the marksmanship king of the range without actually having any skills. Even doing it right, and using the DA pull every few shots to keep it realistic you can and will master the most complicated heavy DA pull gun under the sun. It just takes time, practice and effort. Where the Glock shines is that it cuts the amount of time, practice and effort not only in half, but much less than that. You're not thinking about whether or not you remembered to rengage the safety before holstering your weapon between drills. You're not frustrated because you underpulled the DA pull only to overpull the SA pull for 10K time in a row. Instead you are free to focus on the fundamentals of shooting because the Glock doesn't have all that complicated stuff that slows down the learning curve. It gets out of your way so you get there faster. Even better, once you get there, it is designed to let you do it faster than you could had you spent twice the time on another more complicated gun. Once you master all those fundamentals. Then it is MUCH easier to shoot those more complicatedly designed guns. I don't enjoy shooting them. But I can pick up a Beretta M9, my least favorite gun and shoot like a champ with it now. Much better than I ever could when it was my duty weapon. Because I didn't know the fundamentals. The gun was getting in the way of my making forward progress skill wise. Switching to the Glock eliminated that hurdle. 20+ years later I have a decent foundation that lets me pickup just about anything and do well with it. Not as well as I can with a Glock. But enough to be considered competent. There was a day when that seemed impossible.

That's my $0.02. That and I recommend paying for some professional training so you will be both safe and become proficient MUCH faster than you could learning on your own or with your buddies. See the Competition & Training Section for a list of courses and schools near you. Here in Northern California I recommend both www.gofast1.com and LMS Defense.

Now, all that said. Enjoy whatever you buy and be safe my friend. Memorize, understand and always obey the safety rules. Be a full on safety nazi and you'll always be safe. Welcome to the club. It is one hell of an addiction...and a good one to have.

[Garv]

I think the distance was 9-10 feet for CQB

IF that was your grouping at ten feet and not ten yards, please take a lot of professional training before buying a handgun.

(Now looking under the bridge. This M. O. has been used before.)

[Motosurgeon]

High point done