AR Pistol forward grip

[BigPimping]

Will placing a forward grip instead of an angled grip be causation for a violation of the law if used on an AR Pistol with a 7.5 inch barrel?

[mikeovers]

Having a forward pistol grip would put you in violation of federal law. The angle is a little bit too close to the line for me. Kind of like the arm brace assist that is now under heavy scrutiny with the ATF.

[Marquand]

Yes.

[CSACANNONEER]

Will placing a forward grip instead of an angled grip be causation for a violation of the law if used on an AR Pistol with a 7.5 inch barrel?

Is it an NFA registered AOW? If not, it would be an illegal AOW.

[BigPimping]

Gotcha, angle grip is the plan.

[CK_32]

AFG or finger stop.

Nothin else.

[scootle]

depending on your level of paranoia, even the Magpul AFG rustles some feathers...

a handstop (like a Magpul XTM or IWC Mount-n-Slot) is probably the "safe" bet here.

[killmime1234]

Isn't there an ATF letter floating around that says the AFG is copacetic?

There isn't really much question left after that. CA doesn't have a separate definition of AOW that we have to worry about complying with.

[docflash]

Will placing a forward grip instead of an angled grip be causation for a violation of the law if used on an AR Pistol with a 7.5 inch barrel?

If the overall length of the gun is 26 inches or greater then a vertical forward grip is not illegal according to the ATF. With a 7.5 inch barrel it's unlikely that your overall length will be 26" or greater.

[9M62]

Isn't there an ATF letter floating around that says the AFG is copacetic?

There isn't really much question left after that. CA doesn't have a separate definition of AOW that we have to worry about complying with.

Yeah, just like the ATF letter that said the Sig Brace was legal and M855 ammo was legal.

The ATF's opinion is worth about as much as the paper it's typed on - as evidenced by the fact that it's an opinion that changes with each ATF agent.

Reality is we shouldn't be asking them for permission anyway. Read the law. Follow the law. No need to ask the yard duty what their opinion is -- it just gives them more power than they already have.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

Yeah, just like the ATF letter that said the Sig Brace was legal and M855 ammo was legal.

The ATF's opinion is worth about as much as the paper it's typed on - as evidenced by the fact that it's an opinion that changes with each ATF agent.

Reality is we shouldn't be asking them for permission anyway. Read the law. Follow the law. No need to ask the yard duty what their opinion is -- it just gives them more power than they already have.

Well, isn't that special? Seriously dude, we know the politics involved here. You are preaching to the choir, and the choir is bored.

OP, as the others have noted, you have to have an overall length of 26" for the ATF to no longer classify it as a pistol. At that point, it is legally considered to be an "other" firearm, and you can put a forward vertical grip on it. Be aware that there is some debate on whether or not any muzzle devices count in that total length if they are not welded/pinned on permanently. When in doubt, assume that they are NOT going to be counted when you are trying to determine the length. You can use a standard A1 rifle buffer tube to gain a couple of inches over the carbine buffer tube. However, I don't know if that would be enough to get you over the 26" mark. Perhaps if you went with a longer muzzle device, and spot-welded it on, you could get it over that length. I know a 10.5" upper with the rifle buffer tube will clear 26" without the muzzle device. If you are good with using an AFG, you may as well go that route, and save yourself the hassle. The ATF has been pretty good with putting things in writing on this particular point. And there is no "alternate use" that they can complain about with them, like they did on the Sig brace. They have too many written opinions that they have given out to different companies (like Franklin Arms) for them to suddenly have a change of heart on this. With the Sig brace, they could say people were using it in a manner that differed from what they approved. They can't say that with the VFG, as people are using it exactly as they cleared it. And changing their mind at this late date opens them up to potential lawsuits. There are too many people who have too much invested in these for them to try to change the rules and not run afoul of the legal system.

-MB

[9M62]

Well, isn't that special? Seriously dude, we know the politics involved here. You are preaching to the choir, and the choir is bored.

OP, as the others have noted, you have to have an overall length of 26" for the ATF to no longer classify it as a pistol. At that point, it is legally considered to be an "other" firearm, and you can put a forward vertical grip on it. Be aware that there is some debate on whether or not any muzzle devices count in that total length if they are not welded/pinned on permanently. When in doubt, assume that they are NOT going to be counted when you are trying to determine the length. You can use a standard A1 rifle buffer tube to gain a couple of inches over the carbine buffer tube. However, I don't know if that would be enough to get you over the 26" mark. Perhaps if you went with a longer muzzle device, and spot-welded it on, you could get it over that length. I know a 10.5" upper with the rifle buffer tube will clear 26" without the muzzle device. If you are good with using an AFG, you may as well go that route, and save yourself the hassle. The ATF has been pretty good with putting things in writing on this particular point. And there is no "alternate use" that they can complain about with them, like they did on the Sig brace. They have too many written opinions that they have given out to different companies (like Franklin Arms) for them to suddenly have a change of heart on this. With the Sig brace, they could say people were using it in a manner that differed from what they approved. They can't say that with the VFG, as people are using it exactly as they cleared it. And changing their mind at this late date opens them up to potential lawsuits. There are too many people who have too much invested in these for them to try to change the rules and not run afoul of the legal system.

-MB

Relax big boy. He asked. I told him what the "ruling" is and what it counts for.