Vertical Grip on AR Pistol

[07is350]

Hey all,

My Search-Fu is lacking and I can't seem to find any threads on this.

What type of fore grips can we put on AR Pistols? I see a lot of people with Hand stops and AFGs, but can we have something like this?

http://www.vertexops.com/Fortis_SHIFT_Vertical_p/f-shift.htm

[rideordie]

I wouldn't.. Resembles too much like a vertical grip.

[Devilmonkey89]

"VERTICAL FOREGRIP" right in the description so i wouldn't do it.
Edit: I believe you can't have any thing that you can grip your hand around. * like a vertical grip of any sort.

[himurax13]

OP, anything more than this would probably get you in some trouble.

http://www.sigarms556.com/threads/sig-556-with-magpul-afg-1-fore-grip.10383/

[timdps]

Could be done IF the AR pistol is over 26" and IF you have a letter from the ATF similar to the letter Franklin Armory got for their XO-26.

T

[Baboosh]

Pay the $200 and fill out the paperwork and put a VFG on it. Don't be afraid to be different

[ke6guj]

Could be done IF the AR pistol is over 26" and IF you have a letter from the ATF similar to the letter Franklin Armory got for their XO-26.

T

yup, you can do this if you are >26"

Pay the $200 and fill out the paperwork and put a VFG on it. Don't be afraid to be different

but I prefer this way so I can be <26"

[BLK RFL DIV]

Could be done IF the AR pistol is over 26" and IF you have a letter from the ATF similar to the letter Franklin Armory got for their XO-26.

T

I am in the process of modding an AK pistol (one of my DRACOs) with an M4 buffer tube & a Thordsen setup for a comfortable cheek weld. However, the cheek weld, buffer tube is a side folder, so folded <26 unfolded & locked out >26

I do not want to deal with the headache of attempting to put a VFG in CA, however, I would still like to have some clarification on the setup to see if that option is even viable. I would appreciate any advice you guys might have simply as a matter of discussion.

If my setup is applicable to the legal language regarding a >26 firearm and I did decide to run a VFG, will I really need paperwork from the ATF as noted by timdps? If that is the case, I would definitely forego the idea of ever submitting a letter to the ATF, I don't want any unintended consequences as a result of such a letter.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

This is such a bad idea that it is epic. Seriously? You really want to put an unnecessary buffer tube on a "pistol" that doesn't need it, and make it a folder? With the Thordsen "cheek weld" hardware on it? Really? I know that the ATF has thus far ruled that buffer tubes are not shoulder stocks. But do you really want to push things like this? The main reason buffer tubes have gotten a pass is because they are a functional part of the weapon. Slapping one on an AK, where it serves absolutely no purpose other than as a shoulder brace is just asking for them to slap you down. And putting the rest of us in jeopardy for no good reason. You are trying to skirt the SBR regulations. And while this would technically get around the regs, you should remember what happened with the Sig Brace. Enough people started using them to skirt the SBR regs that the ATF was forced to officially take notice and issue a ruling against using them on your shoulder. Do you really want to attract enough attention to the buffer tubes on "pistols"? I am telling you, this is a bad idea. On many, many levels.

-Mb

I am in the process of modding an AK pistol (one of my DRACOs) with an M4 buffer tube & a Thordsen setup for a comfortable cheek weld. However, the cheek weld, buffer tube is a side folder, so folded <26 unfolded & locked out >26

I do not want to deal with the headache of attempting to put a VFG in CA, however, I would still like to have some clarification on the setup to see if that option is even viable. I would appreciate any advice you guys might have simply as a matter of discussion.

If my setup is applicable to the legal language regarding a >26 firearm and I did decide to run a VFG, will I really need paperwork from the ATF as noted by timdps? If that is the case, I would definitely forego the idea of ever submitting a letter to the ATF, I don't want any unintended consequences as a result of such a letter.

[glock_this]

Just for the point of clarity - one of Thordo's buffer kits + a common carbine rifle buffer tube is just fine since the QD buffer kit fits over the carbine BT and requires tools to put on and take off and conceals the adjustable stock notches. You could not readily put a stock on/over it and make an SBR. As a matter of fact, you could much more quickly put a stock on a pistol buffer tube and get an SBR = like 10x faster and easier & no tools. So, I see this as a non issue and it is not a matter of unnecessary or necessary. If you have a spare carbine buffer tube, no reason to buy a pistol buffer tube, just buy one of his QD Buffer kits and slap it over the carbine BT and you are GTG and get the benefits of an ambi QD and a cleaner install and a cheek weld if you so desire.

The SIG brace and Throdo's QD buffer cover are not even in the same vein so I don't think this is an issue in the slightest.

[rolotomassi]

AFGs are ok, VFGs no unless registered and APPROVED by ATF.

I recommend the trust route. A little pricey but I was able to get the Forms 1 pushed through no sweat.

WARNING: ATF seems to not like "any lawful purpose" as a description, atleast in my experience. They seem to want something explicitly to the effect of "Adding Vertical Foregrip". I know some people in the past have gotten away with "zombies" but if you don't want it kicked back don't muck around with that.

[SkyHawk]

Just for the point of clarity - one of Thordo's buffer kits + a common carbine rifle buffer tube is just fine since the QD buffer kit fits over the carbine BT and requires tools to put on and take off and conceals the adjustable stock notches.

I agree this is probably legit. You could also probably run a pin through the track of a rifle buffer tube or attach any number of things to it that would require a tool to remove before a stock could be installed, and accomplish the same thing.

The SIG brace and Throdo's QD buffer cover are not even in the same vein so I don't think this is an issue in the slightest.

As it turns out, they are exactly in the same vein. The ATF recently told Thordsen the same thing they said about the Sig Brace: The legality of the installation of the product comes down to design, intent and use. The Thordsen cover is no more or less legal than the Sigtac Brace. The Sig Brace is a wrist/forearm support. The Thordsen saddle is a cheek rest.

DEC 18, 2014

https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/atf_response_letter_for_ar_pistol_pack.pdf

Our Branch further notes that as long as the saddle device as evaluated and installed to an AR-type pistol, is not designed or redesigned and intended to contact the shoulder and is not used as a shoulder stock, its possession and use would not be prohibited

IMO - shouldering the Thordsen cheek rest is just as much a bust (or not?) as shouldering the Sig Brace. So I would not (and do not) run anything at all except a pistol buffer tube.

[glock_this]

Ok ok.. wait here.

The Thordson cover is not a cheek rest. Nor does it even come with one. You have to buy that separate. The Thordson cover is essentially a condom for a buffer tube. No more, no less.

NOW, if they have changed their stance on the cheek weld accessory you can get for the the Thordson cover, that is different. But the Thordson cover itself is not a brace in any way any more than a pistol tube is a brace. The SIG Brace is radically different than the Thordson cover. Totally different.

It seems to me you are mixing up what one "could" do with each versus what each actually is and mixing up pieces of the Thordson cover.

And, you can shoulder fire a SIG brace, a Thordson cover or even a basic boring pistol buffer tube. Any is fireable from the shoulder. But if a pistol buffer tube is legit, a Thordson cover must be legit as it is just a condom that fits over the pistol buffer tube and there is NO way to attach a stock to that. The cheek weld piece, the accessory you can also get for his Thordson cover, ok I could see them reversing positions on that. But that is all.

So what, no foam on pistol buffer tubes as then it makes it easier to should fire? Nah.

Even this part of the letter seems to make it clear what is being talked about "a question regarding the legality of attaching a cheek "saddle" to an AR-t1pe pistol. Further, as a part of this inquiry, you asked for a formal evaluation of the accompanying cheek "saddles"" - and this does not in any way at all indicate anything about the Thordson cover itself. Just the cheek accessory.

[fmunk]

Eh, who cares. Per the ATF's latest language on the SB15, even if you shoulder a bare buffer tube they would interpret that as "redesign" with intention of manufacturing a SBR.

Bottomline, no shouldering.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

Just for the point of clarity - one of Thordo's buffer kits + a common carbine rifle buffer tube is just fine since the QD buffer kit fits over the carbine BT and requires tools to put on and take off and conceals the adjustable stock notches. You could not readily put a stock on/over it and make an SBR. As a matter of fact, you could much more quickly put a stock on a pistol buffer tube and get an SBR = like 10x faster and easier & no tools. So, I see this as a non issue and it is not a matter of unnecessary or necessary. If you have a spare carbine buffer tube, no reason to buy a pistol buffer tube, just buy one of his QD Buffer kits and slap it over the carbine BT and you are GTG and get the benefits of an ambi QD and a cleaner install and a cheek weld if you so desire.

The SIG brace and Throdo's QD buffer cover are not even in the same vein so I don't think this is an issue in the slightest.

The thing is, on an AR, they aren't that big of a deal, as they are simply covering the buffer tube. Which is generally there as a functional part of the weapon. On an AK style of pistol, that same buffer tube has absolutely nothing to do with the function of the firearm. It is only there as an excuse to have something to put up to your shoulder in lieu of a shoulder stock. Playing games like that is a sure way to get the ATF to take notice. Just like they did with the Sig brace. What I am saying is don't **** things up for the rest of us because you feel like pushing the envelope.

-Mb