Belt Clip Covering S/N Legal?

[Ewok55]

Would this belt clip that covers the S/N of a Taurus revolver be legal? It attaches with double side adhesive tape and is fairly easily removable. It would make a quick check of the S/N a bit of a hassle.

[Russian Bot]

Why not do a grip clip instead?

[CSACANNONEER]

Sorry, I wouldn't trust double sided tape for this application. Yes, it is 100% legal to cover a SN on a firearm but, it can cause issues for LE doing an E check or otherwise needing the SN for something.

[CSACANNONEER]

If you use a clip, how are you planning to protect/cover the trigger?

[9mmContagion]

Simple answer. No it is NOT ILLEGAL. Is that the best way to carry? I’d say no! Buy a holster that covers the trigger. It’s not the old days where theirs only one type of holster to choose from. When I carried a revolver I preferred Kydex. Take your pick of the thousand holster manufacturers out there, but I wouldn’t use that clip.

[RickD427]

Would this belt clip that covers the S/N of a Taurus revolver be legal? It attaches with double side adhesive tape and is fairly easily removable. It would make a quick check of the S/N a bit of a hassle.

Simple answer. No it is NOT ILLEGAL. Is that the best way to carry? I?d say no! Buy a holster that covers the trigger. It?s not the old days where theirs only one type of holster to choose from. When I carried a revolver I preferred Kydex. Take your pick of the thousand holster manufacturers out there, but I wouldn?t use that clip.

Simple answer is, Yes, it is ILLEGAL.

Please refer to Penal Code section 537e.

[9Cal_OC]

Simple answer is, Yes, it is ILLEGAL.

Please refer to Penal Code section 537e.

We got a lot of guys here breaking the law with their WML on their Glocks

[9mmContagion]

We got a lot of guys here breaking the law with their WML on their Glocks

Yep.. guess that is open to a little interpretation. I?ve always considered that law to refer to permanent obliteration. But I could be wrong. Also, most holsters ?cover? 99% of firearms serial numbers. Guess Mexican carry is the most legal carry?.

[RickD427]

Yep.. guess that is open to a little interpretation. I?ve always considered that law to refer to permanent obliteration. But I could be wrong. Also, most holsters ?cover? 99% of firearms serial numbers. Guess Mexican carry is the most legal carry?.

You may be confused as to the law.

Penal Code section 23900 makes it a felony to permanently obliterate the serial number of a firearm. Here is the text:

"Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer?s number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm, without first having secured written permission from the department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170."

Penal Code section 537e makes it a misdemeanor to cover (even temporarily) the serial number on any item of personal property. There is an exception made where the manufacturer, in the regular course of business, can cover the serial number, but others cannot (I own a couple of S&W "J" frames where the factory grips cover the S/N). Here is the text:

"(a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer?s serial number, identification number, electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding six months.

(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(3) If the property is an integrated computer chip or panel of a value of nine hundred fifty dollars ($950) or more, by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(b) For purposes of this subdivision, ?personal property? includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano, or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.

(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other household appliance or furnishings.

(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other office equipment or furnishings.

(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or other part of a computer.

(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or scientific equipment.

(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or recreational equipment.

(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material, or piece of apparatus or equipment.

(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.

(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.

(c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer it shall become subject to the provision of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2, relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved in, or permanently affixed to it.
(d) This section does not apply to those cases or instances where any of the changes or alterations enumerated in subdivision (a) have been customarily made or done as an established practice in the ordinary and regular conduct of business, by the original manufacturer, or by his or her duly appointed direct representative, or under specific authorization from the original manufacturer."

[Ewok55]

That's the answer I was looking for. It would be covering per 573e. I thought that when I asked and like here, got different opinions from different people.

Yep, old S&W revolvers have the S/N on the bottom of the grip frame. Factory target grips and many aftermarket grips will cover them. I'm not sure when they moved the S/N . But now you have me thinking about aftermarket grips on an old N Frame....

[CSACANNONEER]

You may be confused as to the law.

Penal Code section 23900 makes it a felony to permanently obliterate the serial number of a firearm. Here is the text:

"Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer?s number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other firearm, without first having secured written permission from the department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170."

Penal Code section 537e makes it a misdemeanor to cover (even temporarily) the serial number on any item of personal property. There is an exception made where the manufacturer, in the regular course of business, can cover the serial number, but others cannot (I own a couple of S&W "J" frames where the factory grips cover the S/N). Here is the text:

"(a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer?s serial number, identification number, electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding six months.

(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(3) If the property is an integrated computer chip or panel of a value of nine hundred fifty dollars ($950) or more, by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(b) For purposes of this subdivision, ?personal property? includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano, or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.

(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other household appliance or furnishings.

(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other office equipment or furnishings.

(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or other part of a computer.

(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or scientific equipment.

(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or recreational equipment.

(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material, or piece of apparatus or equipment.

(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.

(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.

(c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer it shall become subject to the provision of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2, relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved in, or permanently affixed to it.
(d) This section does not apply to those cases or instances where any of the changes or alterations enumerated in subdivision (a) have been customarily made or done as an established practice in the ordinary and regular conduct of business, by the original manufacturer, or by his or her duly appointed direct representative, or under specific authorization from the original manufacturer."

Reading the text of the law, it appears to make it illegal to put a radio into a paper bag, a circuit board into an enclosed case, a firearm into a locked container, getting mud or grease build up on a tool, etc. Is there a definitive line or, is it open to interpretation by each individual who is trying to enforce the law?

[RickD427]

Reading the text of the law, it appears to make it illegal to put a radio into a paper bag, a circuit board into an enclosed case, a firearm into a locked container, getting mud or grease build up on a tool, etc. Is there a definitive line or, is it open to interpretation by each individual who is trying to enforce the law?

PC 537e does leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's a classic statute that calls for the application of the enforcement guidance of Penal Code section 4.

I don't think that any of your examples would show a violation, when the PC 4 guidance is followed.

But on the other hand, let's look at an electric "e-bike." Those things get stolen like crazy. If I stop a knucklehead riding one, and I find a carefully rigged up cover that conceals the serial number, then I'd probably make an arrest for 537e and then do a field investigation to determine if the e-bike was stolen. The 537e tool, in that case, would make the difference between having the suspect in hand vs. only recovering the stolen bike.

[CSACANNONEER]

PC 537e does leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's a classic statute that calls for the application of the enforcement guidance of Penal Code section 4.

I don't think that any of your examples would show a violation, when the PC 4 guidance is followed.

But on the other hand, let's look at an electric "e-bike." Those things get stolen like crazy. If I stop a knucklehead riding one, and I find a carefully rigged up cover that conceals the serial number, then I'd probably make an arrest for 537e and then do a field investigation to determine if the e-bike was stolen. The 537e tool, in that case, would make the difference between having the suspect in hand vs. only recovering the stolen bike.

Instead of a carefully rigged cover up, how about if someone painted a heavy coat of paint (because many people can't spray paint well) that made reading the SN impossible? Or, even simply painting a clear coat over the SN could qualify as "covered" even though one can visibly see through the paint.

[RickD427]

Instead of a carefully rigged cover up, how about if someone painted a heavy coat of paint (because many people can't spray paint well) that made reading the SN impossible? Or, even simply painting a clear coat over the SN could qualify as "covered" even though one can visibly see through the paint.

I don't think that either of those two examples would survive the application of Penal Code Section Four's guidance.