Carry Without Permit?

[OldLincoln]

I know the law rules and I'm asking for real world answers to the question of somebody with a loaded gun in their glove box and no permit. I was talking with a guy at the range who asked me about permits and said he doesn't want to get one because he believes it puts him on a special list of guns to be grabbed (by the feds) first. I advised him against illegal carry but it bothered me enough to puzzle over it.

If he were caught, would he be arrested and jailed? The gun permanently confiscated? My thinking is yes to confiscation but likely not actually jailed.

The bigger issue is would this record prohibit him from getting a permit in the future?

Please no BS on whys and they oughta, just what is likely to happen. And for the record it is not me, just a nice guy who is afraid of the government.

[Ninety]

I think if the gun isn't registered in his name it becomes a wobbler offense.. could be charged as a felony..

[Custom ii]

could be charged as a felony..

Which would eliminate any concern of being on any federal lists.

[Scuba951]

I think if the gun isn't registered in his name it becomes a wobbler offense.. could be charged as a felony..

AFAIK, & IANAL, but carrying a concealed firearm upon yourself, if registered in your name, in California, is now a misdomeanor and not a wobbler.

[RickD427]

I know the law rules and I'm asking for real world answers to the question of somebody with a loaded gun in their glove box and no permit. I was talking with a guy at the range who asked me about permits and said he doesn't want to get one because he believes it puts him on a special list of guns to be grabbed (by the feds) first. I advised him against illegal carry but it bothered me enough to puzzle over it.

If he were caught, would he be arrested and jailed? The gun permanently confiscated? My thinking is yes to confiscation but likely not actually jailed.

The bigger issue is would this record prohibit him from getting a permit in the future?

Please no BS on whys and they oughta, just what is likely to happen. And for the record it is not me, just a nice guy who is afraid of the government.

Several years ago, it would have been highly dependent on the circumstances, and on the LEO. If a person found CCW without a permit appeared to be an upstanding person, and there was good cause for the CCW, about 50% of LEOs would "warn and advise" rather than arrest.

Those odds have changed over the years, I'd now say about 80% would make the arrest.

If the weapon is registered to you in AFS, it is a misdemeanor. You would either be cited an released in the field (kinda like a speeding ticket), or you would briefly go to jail, be photographed and fingerprinted, and then released on a citation.

If the weapon is not registered to you in AFS, and if the weapon were loaded, or if ammunition for the weapon were under your control, then its a felony with a potential three year sentence (and all of the legal disabilities that go along with being a felon). You go to jail and stay there until bail is posted. Under these conditions, plan on about 99% of LEOs making the arrest.

In other words, if you're an upstanding citizen taking your chances with a CCW, I'd make very sure the weapon was registered.

Many previous posters have described the offense as being a "Wobbler", meaning that the felony could be charged as a misdemeanor. That is the case with this particular charge. But please remember the way this works is the "Wobbler" starts out as a felony, and nothing less than a felony, until is "wobbles." That decision is made by the D.A. and it usually comes after you've been sitting in jail for 2-3 days, or have paid the bail bond. Most of these cases that I have seen for first time offenders are filed as misdemeanors.

[Librarian]

See also the brief discussion of PC 25400 in the sticky here.

[P5Ret]

^ All of the above with the addition of keeping a loaded gun in a glove compartment could lead to something a bit more serious than a criminal charge. Since most of us keep our registration/insurance card in there. Things could get real serious real quick on that traffic stop.

[Spyguy]

If the weapon is not registered to you in AFS, and if the weapon were loaded, or if ammunition for the weapon were under your control, then its a felony with a potential three year sentence (and all of the legal disabilities that go along with being a felon). You go to jail and stay there until bail is posted. Under these conditions, plan on about 99% of LEOs making the arrest.

In other words, if you're an upstanding citizen taking your chances with a CCW, I'd make very sure the weapon was registered.

What exactly is AFS, what is its scope, and when did they start collecting firearm registration data for it?

[Librarian]

AFS is Automated Firearms System.

It came into existence about 1998, when DROS submissions were required to be electronic.

It might have been earlier, about 1991, when California firearms transfers began to be required to use an FFL, and therefore DROS. (ETA RickD427 [below] used it in 1976, so clearly it's been around much longer then I thought; probably didn't have a lot of data before 1991, though.)

ETA2 Old Penal Code

12011. The Prohibited Armed Persons File data base shall function
as follows:
(a) Upon entry into the Automated Criminal History System of a
disposition for a conviction of any felony, a conviction for any
firearms-prohibiting charge specified in Section 12021, a conviction
for an offense described in Section 12021.1, a firearms prohibition
pursuant to Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions
Code, or any firearms possession prohibition identified by the
federal National Instant Check System, the Department of Justice
shall determine if the subject has an entry in the Automated Firearms
System indicating possession or ownership of a firearm on or after
January 1, 1991, or an assault weapon registration.
(b) Upon an entry into any department automated information system
that is used for the identification of persons who are prohibited
from acquiring, owning, or possessing firearms, the department shall
determine if the subject has an entry in the Automated Firearms
System indicating ownership or possession of a firearm on or after
January 1, 1991, or an assault weapon registration.

Earlier handgun transaction info (1924 and forward) was forwarded to the state. Some of the data from prior to 1998 has been manually input; anecdotes here a few years ago suggested data from the 1980s had been entered.

Beginning Jan 1 2014, DROS will collect and transmit to the state comparable information about long gun transfers as has been collected for handguns.

[RickD427]

What exactly is AFS, what is its scope, and when did they start collecting firearm registration data for it?

Spyguy,

Sorry, I had assumed that AFS was a well-known acronym on this board.

Librarian pretty much covered it. AFS was operational when I was first started in 1976. It's become more complete as reporting requirements have increased. California has never embraced the term "Registration" but that's pretty what AFS accomplishes. If you've DROS'd (Dealer Report of Sale) a handgun, voluntarily registered, or submitted a Personal Importer Report, or did an Assault Weapon Registration, then the weapon should be listed to you in AFS.

[Spyguy]

So what if someone moves into California with legal firearms acquired out-of-state?

[Bainter1212]

A loaded concealed and legally registered gun is TWO misdemeanors. PC 25400 and 25850 (a). The gun would be confiscated and the carrier likely given a ticket, with no arrest if they behaved well otherwise. After charges are adjudicated the gun can be reclaimed with a LEGR letter from the DOJ. If the gun is not registered the charges can be enhanced to felony status.

These misdemeanors are not prohibiting misdemeanors.

[jaymz]

First offense is likely a misdemeanor as others have stated. I'd guess that a conviction would put the chances of getting a carry permit in the future just slightly above zero.

[jarhead714]

Several years ago, it would have been highly dependent on the circumstances, and on the LEO. If a person found CCW without a permit appeared to be an upstanding person, and there was good cause for the CCW, about 50% of LEOs would "warn and advise" rather than arrest.

Those odds have changed over the years, I'd now say about 80% would make the arrest.

If the weapon is registered to you in AFS, it is a misdemeanor. You would either be cited an released in the field (kinda like a speeding ticket), or you would briefly go to jail, be photographed and fingerprinted, and then released on a citation.

If the weapon is not registered to you in AFS, and if the weapon were loaded, or if ammunition for the weapon were under your control, then its a felony with a potential three year sentence (and all of the legal disabilities that go along with being a felon). You go to jail and stay there until bail is posted. Under these conditions, plan on about 99% of LEOs making the arrest.

In other words, if you're an upstanding citizen taking your chances with a CCW, I'd make very sure the weapon was registered.

Many previous posters have described the offense as being a "Wobbler", meaning that the felony could be charged as a misdemeanor. That is the case with this particular charge. But please remember the way this works is the "Wobbler" starts out as a felony, and nothing less than a felony, until is "wobbles." That decision is made by the D.A. and it usually comes after you've been sitting in jail for 2-3 days, or have paid the bail bond. Most of these cases that I have seen for first time offenders are filed as misdemeanors.

By upstanding citizen do you mean middle aged, white, and living in a white neighborhood?

[HighLander51]

So what if someone moves into California with legal firearms acquired out-of-state?

You have to register the handguns with the CA DOJ.