CCW Firearm Modifications

[bcoc2002]

I was at my range the other day to shoot my edc ccw firearm. I struck up a conversation about what and if any modifications were allowed to the gun. He told me he believed that sights and grips were the only changes that could legally be made. I would really like to replace the plastic spring guide for a stainless steel one Does anyone have some more concrete knowledge about this issue.

[38Special]

I was at my range the other day to shoot my edc ccw firearm. I struck up a conversation about what and if any modifications were allowed to the gun. He told me he believed that sights and grips were the only changes that could legally be made. I would really like to replace the plastic spring guide for a stainless steel one Does anyone have some more concrete knowledge about this issue.

Depends on your IA which you failed to state. Not having a location won't get you much help.
Why not post this in the area that covers your location? Or do you like those reading this not know where the hell you are?

[Mayor McRifle]

I would really like to replace the plastic spring guide for a stainless steel one

Modifications are okay with my IA. I actually discussed the benefits of a short reset trigger and defensive carry packages (e.g., smoothing out the trigger) with my investigator, and he was all for it. Check your IA's website, or just call them and ask them -- but I can't see how anyone would object to something as innocuous as a stainless steel guide rod.

[Barbarosa]

Riverside only allows grips and sights; any other modifications must be approved by the RO at qualifications. That said, they only do a cursory inspection and dry fire to make sure your trigger pull is OK. I doubt they would notice your modifications unless it was fluorescent pink.

[bcoc2002]

CCW Modifications

My bad, Im in Orange County. I didn't originally list my location because I thought this was a state wide issue. The whole real reason for asking is, I heard that in the event one ever had to use their ccw, and there was a death involved, your firearm would most likely be opened for inspection. In the almost 100% certainty that there would be a civil trial from a law suit from the perps family. Your firearm will be analyized for the changing of parts. Just because IA where I live says that mods are ok, that doesn't meen my incident happened here. Could be another county in Ca where most mods aren't approved.

[vocoder]

The terms of your Orange County license state "...a weapon altered from its originally approved design" or "possessing any equipment or attachments to a firearm not specifically approved as a part of the license" are not allowe. But, those can be vague and your best bet is to call/email them with specifics and retain the response they send you.

[BlackyHouston]

Riverside County has no mandate to Qualifying Instruction Sites and or their RO's at this time, whereas Orange County does.

Riverside only allows grips and sights; any other modifications must be approved by the RO at qualifications. That said, they only do a cursory inspection and dry fire to make sure your trigger pull is OK. I doubt they would notice your modifications unless it was fluorescent pink.

[Mayor McRifle]

I heard that in the event one ever had to use their ccw, and there was a death involved, your firearm would most likely be opened for inspection. In the almost 100% certainty that there would be a civil trial from a law suit from the perps family. Your firearm will be analyized for the changing of parts. Just because IA where I live says that mods are ok, that doesn't meen my incident happened here. Could be another county in Ca where most mods aren't approved.

That's why you should only use deadly force in self defense. If deadly force is used intentionally to stop an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury (as long as your fear is reasonable under the circumstances), that deadly force is justified under California law. Modifications don't matter in regard to the intentional use of deadly force, as deadly force is deadly force regardless of the means used. Certain modifications could conceivably become an issue if you claim a shooting was accidental, or if a plaintiff was trying to prove negligence on your part. In a case of intentional use of deadly force in self-defense, negligence is not an issue.

[Barbarosa]

Riverside County has no mandate to Qualifying Instruction Sites and or their RO's at this time, whereas Orange County does.

It is right on the application.

Absolutely no modifications shall be made to any weapon, without the approval, and subsequent inspection,
of the range master staff located at the Ben Clark Training Center. Scopes of any type are not permitted.

[Cokebottle]

My bad, Im in Orange County. I didn't originally list my location because I thought this was a state wide issue. The whole real reason for asking is, I heard that in the event one ever had to use their ccw, and there was a death involved, your firearm would most likely be opened for inspection. In the almost 100% certainty that there would be a civil trial from a law suit from the perps family. Your firearm will be analyized for the changing of parts. Just because IA where I live says that mods are ok, that doesn't meen my incident happened here. Could be another county in Ca where most mods aren't approved.

OC is pretty strict and doesn't allow much.
Like Riverside, pretty much only sights and grips are permitted.


That said, there is a lot of FUD regarding liability due to weapons changes after a shooting. This is driven by comments made by Massad Ayoob.
Massad is an extremely intelligent man, who has a career primarily focused on consulting with police agencies.
Standards that apply to police are far more stringent than standards that apply to Joe Resident.
But even then, when put on the spot, Massad can not cite a single court case where a modification was a pivotal issue in securing a conviction.

Criminally, a good shoot is a good shoot and a bad shoot is a bad shoot. A 2lb trigger or "Punisher" grips is not going to change that legal fact.


The civil trial is another story.
Fortunately, your attorney will do the talking. All you need to do is be able to articulate to him what modifications were made, why they were made, and WHO made them (in the case of trigger work, hopefully a qualified gunsmith and not Bubba with a Dremel)
Your attorney MUST know the entire truth. Don't hide anything from him. If you did your own trigger mod, he needs to know... surprises are not a good thing on the floor of the courtroom. Don't tell your attorney that OC Gunsmith did your trigger and your sights if you did your own trigger, because OCG's records will be requested and if it shows only a sight installation

Some things fall under the line of "really?" and make the attorney's job harder. Punisher grips, Zombie defense ammo... at the very least they can be used to try to show that you view the gun as a "toy" rather than as a deadly weapon.

But even in the infamous case in AZ where the cop was hammered... Yes, he had a "You're ****ed" engraved dust cover on his AR, and that fact was widely published. That made no difference. It would have been a bad shoot had he used a 10/22.

[Quiet]

But even in the infamous case in AZ where the cop was hammered... Yes, he had a "You're ****ed" engraved dust cover on his AR, and that fact was widely published. That made no difference. It would have been a bad shoot had he used a 10/22.

FYI.
Jury found him not guilty of any wrong doing.

Mesa PD fired him for having the engraved dust cover on his patrol rifle due to department policy prohibiting unauthorized customizations to on-duty firearms.

[L84CABO]

My bad, Im in Orange County. I didn't originally list my location because I thought this was a state wide issue. The whole real reason for asking is, I heard that in the event one ever had to use their ccw, and there was a death involved, your firearm would most likely be opened for inspection. In the almost 100% certainty that there would be a civil trial from a law suit from the perps family. Your firearm will be analyized for the changing of parts. Just because IA where I live says that mods are ok, that doesn't meen my incident happened here. Could be another county in Ca where most mods aren't approved.

You're bound by the terms of your IA...which they should have covered in your class. I've never heard of anyone being bound by the terms of another IA. It would be pretty hard to understand the terms of every county in CA. I've also never heard of a trial where this type of thing has happened...a person being convicted due to not following the terms of the local IA. I obviously am not familiar with every court case.

In general, however, the question of whether or not to modify your carry gun comes up pretty regularly. And there are certainly some "experts" who advise against it. Massad Ayoob is one if memory serves. It is, however, difficult to find an actual court case where somebody was convicted due to modifying their weapon. If you can find a case, please let us know.

My personal opinion is that I will make any REASONABLE modification to my weapon that improves my odds of surviving the gunfight to make it to court. This includes trigger and action work. I'm of the opinion that a good shoot is a good shoot and a competent attorney can counter whatever comes up.

Example:

District Attorney: "Mr Cabo, I see you lightened your trigger to 4.5 lbs. Clearly this means you are a blood thirsty killer!"

My Attorney: "My client lightened his trigger to improve the overall accuracy of the weapon to ensure he hit his target and not some innocent bystander. He did lighten his trigger but it is still within the range of what comes from many factory weapons. Wilson Combat is one of these MFG's, as an example."

Note too that I said "reasonable." Obviously if you lighten your trigger to 1.5 lbs and then ND into somebody, you are probably going to have a problem on your hands.

Again, I believe a good shoot is a good shoot, and my attorney can deal with whatever comes up. And I'm willing to take whatever consequences come. At least I'll be alive. YMMV.