What Happened With .net - Librarian Said...

[TrappedinCalifornia]

For those who don't already know, here's a concise post from Librarian on the 'other site' regarding what happened...

I was on that forum for years! What exactly happened to it? Can barely log on there now

Really don't know?

Summary: At the end of 2022, the hosting service for Calguns.net decided to get out of the business. The software was moved to another host about December 2022, but it was running incompatible software that vbulletin uses. So for about a year, the forum would run, but had a collection of weird behaviors.

In 2024, at the end of April, the forum was migrated to vbulletin 6, on the cloud service hosted by VB. There were Conversion Issues, one of which was the loss of iTrader, which was an add-on for the old VB 3.x.

Apparently the costs for the data the forum used were high for the cloud service, and performance was sometimes odd, so the forum was moved to another hosting service (https://www.inmotionhosting.com/) at the end of August 2024. (Just three months of this pain? Seems like forever.)

And, the problems with that are what this thread is about.

He's got 'badges' which indicate he's a supporter and contributor to that site; but, he's been remaining fairly even keeled.

No. I won't link to the thread it's from as there are a goodly number of accusations being thrown around regarding Kestryll in addition to the usual "he should sell it" as well as 'instructions' on how to discontinue your financial support of .net. Let's just say that if our continuing loyalty to Kestryll is misplaced, so be it, we'll find out soon enough. If it's not, well... Let's agree that some of these people should not be all that 'welcome' back at .net so far as I'm concerned.

[alaskascottr]

Is DrjonesUSA over there? If so what if anything has he said? Since he hasn’t posted here since … well, he said things.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

Is DrjonesUSA over there? If so what if anything has he said? Since he hasn’t posted here since … well, he said things.

The last I saw anything was at the end of October - An Update (Of Sorts)... Maybe... About What's Happening

Even that wasn't something I found. It was pointed out and 'buried' in another thread here. (See OP in that thread for link.)

As I and others have said, we're dubious it's as simple and straight-forward a 'fix' as many have been 'expertizing' about.

Likewise, we now know that it was an 'update/upgrade' Kestryll was 'forced' into; not by a 'competing site,' but by virtue of the fact that the one hosting service went out of business and the next one was running incompatible software. Put bluntly, Kestryll didn't 'destroy' the site out of neglect or lack of expertise. We've been warned, literally for years, that any change in the software was going to lead to problems; but, it was kept to mollify and make a segment of the membership happy in their trading. Now, it's a matter of trying to save what can be salvaged from 20+ years of information posting.

If anyone has heard anything new, please let us know.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

This is a very naive take.

1.) you don’t provide instructions for your members on how to cancel. You’re not even a contributor, why don’t you sign up? If you saw the question, people did not know how to cancel. The instructions are posted on here by me too but was not accessible. You aren’t able to cancel on this site. It’s hidden, hmm I wonder why? Whats your excuse for this?

2.) its takes 10 minutes to install a compatible database software.

3.) you can upgrade and have kept itrader, IF you paid professionals to do their job. It’s like I gave you the task of upgrading the site and everyone is twiddling their thumbs wondering why it doesn’t work reliably.

4.) if you don’t want to welcome Calguns members back, if the site improves, then that speaks volumes about your loyalty to a website/man and not a purpose. 2A in CA should not be gated and not by you of all people, not me either. Both sites can thrive, maybe you don’t know that is possible. It can! Just like arfcom, snipershide, gunbroker, glocktalk, reddit, facebook, etc all still keep chugging along.

you’ve been patient for the past 3 years. Kudos to you. The purpose of what Kes and myself do is to provide a platform for the 2A community. If anything I hope he enjoys retirement and time with his Boss. It takes a lot of time and effort to keep the site operational.

Personally, I added a cancel button out of professionalism, which you so elegantly ignored. I’d love to know how many are still paying who no longer want to, that you’re now actively preventing them from canceling.

Naive or simply a different understanding from the one you've been trying to spin?

1.) It's not up to me to provide instructions. I don't own the site. But, that brings us to a more relevant point. You don't own the site either and even though there are a good number of members from here on YOUR site, it's not your job (quite a few would argue that it's not your duty or right) to tell them how to 'manage' their relationship with this site. It doesn't matter whether they're paying or not. It's none of your business. Frankly, it comes across as - 'bad form' - in an 'undermining the site' sort of way. (We know a number of people have had their accounts 'canceled.' If you'd paid attention to various threads over the years, that would have been apparent. Hint: It has 'something' to do with kicking Kestryll an e-mail.)

I don't need to go into (again) why I'm not a contributor and neither are many others. We've already laid it out, several times.

2.) Again, try to keep up. It's not just about 'database software.' It's about making 'older' database software compatible with 'new' database software. As someone who prides themselves on implementing those kinds of things, you should already know it isn't always that simple. Just like moving from Lotus 1-2-3 to Excel. While there are/were a lot of similarities, it took time to learn the differences and adapt to them.

3.) We've talked about this before. Throwing money at things isn't always the answer. Such is particularly true if the money isn't necessarily there to throw; something you've lamented yourself in relation to your own site. (Ahem.)

4.) What it speaks to isn't loyalty to a site or a man, but a sense of propriety and decorum. That particular thread isn't one I'm keeping track of. It's one I check in on a couple times a month, at most. Why? Because it's all about bashing .net and Kestryll. Well, at least for many. That has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Amendment buddy. In fact, the rest of #4 flat out ignores our previous discussions and how many times I've said that there's a place for both sites; something you were initially pushing vis a vis your desire for control of both sites and dividing the territory (what is covered) between the two. Each site (including those you list and more) have a niche. That's the very essence of a business, to serve a niche in the market. Rightly or wrongly, you took advantage of an opportunity in regard to iTrader and the 'forced' upgrade. Again, we've been warned about losing iTrader with an upgrade for YEARS and we were warned, for months, ahead of time that it was pending.

Trading was, it would appear, your initial emphasis for your site. You then 'expanded' it, as we've discussed, by copying (not the technology) but the layout of this site. Yet, your most prolific thread is the one bashing this site and Kestryll. The rest? Kind of a poor showing in terms of contributions, for the most part. (BTW: There's more than a single thread on your site with posts speaking about Calguns. As I said, I don't spend much time there and only keep track of three threads and it's readily apparent, even to me.) You may view yourself as some sort of 'savior' or 'martyr' or whatever, depending on the thread and what you're spinning, but it is viewed in a decidedly different manner by many. (Note your comment about how people 'talk to you' here, how... Oh... readers who've been keeping track already know and others are free to go back and look.) I'd hazard to say that neither your view nor the views of many others are... entirely... accurate.

We've been patient for 3 MONTHS - note Librarian's post in the OP. (Okay, maybe 7 months depending on where you start counting.) Most of the issues were behind-the-scenes since 2022 or in specific applications within the site.

Just like your continued claims and allusions to your perception that Kestryll has 'retired' or 'abandoned' the site. We don't know that. Nobody can say or, at least, isn't saying. It's just rank speculation and, frankly, for many here, it's gotten real old. (You might note a certain OT thread from the other day. Oh yeah. You already found it. 😉 Not exactly going your way there, is it? It seems I'm the least of your problems here. You might note I didn't even give you the Thumbs down on the post I'm responding to. I'm doing it here by way of explanation and 'unspinning' your 'spin.') In fact, based on the commentary I saw on your site regarding his 'Boss' (i.e., his wife) and all the inferences/allusions, I'd probably be real careful treading that ground were I you.

Your sense of 'professionalism' is something I've seen over the years and don't necessarily appreciate or condone. What you feel 'proper' has been called into question by many here and rightfully so. As we've discussed, what you do on your site is your business. What you consider 'proper' for this site is not our concern. It's just an opinion and, as you've noted, you've had no response to the numerous overtures you've made (which you felt obliged to continuously remind us of). As I told you before - No answer is an answer.

I know you want a peek behind the curtain. I know the outright refusal to allow you one has peeved you. Too bad, so sad. But, blaming ordinary members (like me) for now 'allowing' it is simply... uh... infantile and misguided. I have no say. Neither do I have any insight myself. It's something I've noted any number of times.

What was that I've repeatedly said about your 'spinning' things?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I have my own suspicions about your 'agenda' and it comes, in large measure from your own declarations. Have I shared it? Nope. Why? Because it's suspicions and speculation. It's also based on a number of observations from those threads I do keep track of on your site. As I've told you, the 'mixed messaging' you continuously send is telling if one chooses to see it that way.

Naive? No. Willing to accept someone's (actually, several in this case) word until proven incorrect? Yep. Are you saying that Librarian is in on the 'con' you posit and is simply presenting a 'tailored' version of what you want people to believe was a reaction to you and your build? (see your previous posts) If so... What was that about 'professionalism' and how you portray a contributing member of your own site?

So far as I know, no one is 'preventing' people from canceling contributions or membership. In fact, all one has to do is simply stop posting, stop visiting, and get with their payment company of choice to discontinue payments. What was that about 'spin' again?

You see, you keep claiming I'm 'ignoring' you and the things you do. Not really. I just don't see a relevance insofar as this site. You can and probably should be proud of the work you've put in on your site. That doesn't mean everyone has to be proud of it and send encomium your way. Likewise, your claims about 'stats' aren't as telling as you aggrandize them to be and it's something a number of us have pointed out.

Just like your site being about the 2nd Amendment. Uh... Yes and no. It's about what you allow to be discussed in relation to the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment is about more than the technical aspects of firearms. It's about politics, especially here in California. It's about laws, which are a derivative of politics and 'legal discussions' have yet to gain much traction on your site so far as I can tell. (Librarian has been trying and I give him credit for that.) In short, ;your site is your own, self-declared, 'safe space' and as has been observed on this site, such a term isn't necessarily applicable when it comes to the 2nd Amendment in this country. It's why some have decided you have your head stuck in the sand (and other places). I simply see it as picking your niche, then making everyone play in that lane... or else. As someone noted earlier, declaring a 'safe space' is a marketing gimmick for a specific audience.

Speaking of 'marketing gimmicks'... We've talked about this before. Want to 'advertise' how 'wonderful' your site/safe space is on here? Pay up. Otherwise... What was that about 'professionalism' and protocol?

[Offwidth]

This is a very naive take.

1.) you don’t provide instructions for your members on how to cancel. You’re not even a contributor, why don’t you sign up? If you saw the question, people did not know how to cancel. The instructions are posted on here by me too but was not accessible. You aren’t able to cancel on this site. It’s hidden, hmm I wonder why? Whats your excuse for this?

2.) its takes 10 minutes to install a compatible database software.

3.) you can upgrade and have kept itrader, IF you paid professionals to do their job. It’s like I gave you the task of upgrading the site and everyone is twiddling their thumbs wondering why it doesn’t work reliably.

4.) if you don’t want to welcome Calguns members back, if the site improves, then that speaks volumes about your loyalty to a website/man and not a purpose. 2A in CA should not be gated and not by you of all people, not me either. Both sites can thrive, maybe you don’t know that is possible. It can! Just like arfcom, snipershide, gunbroker, glocktalk, reddit, facebook, etc all still keep chugging along.

you’ve been patient for the past 3 years. Kudos to you. The purpose of what Kes and myself do is to provide a platform for the 2A community. If anything I hope he enjoys retirement and time with his Boss. It takes a lot of time and effort to keep the site operational.

Personally, I added a cancel button out of professionalism, which you so elegantly ignored. I’d love to know how many are still paying who no longer want to, that you’re now actively preventing them from canceling.

I really don’t understand owner’s logic here at all. Any popular enough site can be trivially hosted for a profit, by hiring professional help. There is no magic or drama whatsoever. There is no financial burden. It pays for itself.

This was a useful and popular resource. Ssd to see it go due to.. unclear what exactly.

software migration issues?? Hundreds of users on this forum (myself included) who can execute much harder projects while drunk and half asleep.

[Sgt Raven]

2.) Again, try to keep up. It's not just about 'database software.' It's about making 'older' database software compatible with 'new' database software. As someone who prides themselves on implementing those kinds of things, you should already know it isn't always that simple. Just like moving from Lotus 1-2-3 to Excel. While there are/were a lot of similarities, it took time to learn the differences and adapt to them.

It's not changing Lotus 1-2-3 to Excel. Take a file saved in 20 year old Word and try and open it in today's Word. At best it will convert it to the latest file system. If you try and open a current Word file in a older version of Word, it may not work at all.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

It's not changing Lotus 1-2-3 to Excel. Take a file saved in 20 year old Word and try and open it in today's Word. At best it will convert it to the latest file system. If you try and open a current Word file in a older version of Word, it may not work at all.

I get that. The same holds true for Excel and Lotus. However, the point wasn't a technical one about those two programs. The point was the similarities weren't the issue. The differences between the software were, particularly as an user accustomed to one, but not the other.

Even with your Word example, some of the older Word documents don't 'translate' exactly into the newer versions and will require subsequent 'tweaking.' Sometimes it's minor, sometimes it's more 'involved.'

Of course, there was also a time when Word was a relative newcomer and anything done in Word had to be redone to work with Word Perfect, which was often the required format for documents. Generally, that required the hiring of someone to redo the whole thing in the other format.

As I've said, I was dealing with some of this 35 years ago and more. It was a whole different reality then. Yet, the more things change, the more one tends to realize that the concepts remain similar.

[Sgt Raven]

I get that. The same holds true for Excel and Lotus. However, the point wasn't a technical one about those two programs. The point was the similarities weren't the issue. The differences between the software were, particularly as an user accustomed to one, but not the other.

Even with your Word example, some of the older Word documents don't 'translate' exactly into the newer versions and will require subsequent 'tweaking.' Sometimes it's minor, sometimes it's more 'involved.'

Of course, there was also a time when Word was a relative newcomer and anything done in Word had to be redone to work with Word Perfect, which was often the required format for documents. Generally, that required the hiring of someone to redo the whole thing in the other format.

As I've said, I was dealing with some of this 35 years ago and more. It was a whole different reality then. Yet, the more things change, the more one tends to realize that the concepts remain similar.

That was the point I was trying to make. Just because they are both versions of vB, does not mean they will translate after skipping the intermediate steps in the software.
Then it is possible there is some malicious code hiding in the whole mess.

40 years ago my late wife worked for a small stationary store chain in their accounting section. One day she entered a date using mm/dd/yy instead of mm/dd/yyyy.
When she hit enter it crashed and locked their chain wide computer system. It took their programmer who wrote the code hours to get it and running again.
Everything was 'dumb terminals' running on a 'mini-computer'.

[TrappedinCalifornia]

That was the point I was trying to make. Just because they are both versions of vB, does not mean they will translate after skipping the intermediate steps in the software.
Then it is possible there is some malicious code hiding in the whole mess.

40 years ago my late wife worked for a small stationary store chain in their accounting section. One day she entered a date using mm/dd/yy instead of mm/dd/yyyy.
When she hit enter it crashed and locked their chain wide computer system. It took their programmer who wrote the code hours to get it and running again.
Everything was 'dumb terminals' running on a 'mini-computer'.

Yep. That's the whole point. We know Kestryll has skipped the intermediary updates since iTrader only worked on the version we were using.

Lotus to Excel was similar in that, for example, a semi-colon meant something in one and meant something else in the other. It often took some time to figure out what people were entering 'incorrectly,' particularly since they were all familiar and 'expert' with one or the other; but, very few were 'familiar' with both. It was a real local hassle at the time in that Lotus was being phased out in the schools in favor of Excel, yet the local businesses typically ran on Lotus. We were told that Excel was the wave of the future and we should adapt. Our response was that we were trying to make things work in the 'now' and were looking to train people in Excel.

Similarly, Word and Word Perfect had differences in formatting which were allowed, used differing fonts, etc. It was all a bit frustrating and could be expensive when having to find someone who could re-do one from the other. I remember running into a Master's student from the University about 2 hrs. away who had to pay the Department Secretary to redo his entire thesis so it would be formatted correctly as per the University's guidelines. He just looked at me funny when I said I used a portable typewriter to get through college.

Today's generations don't grasp it as there are now 'conversions' which will run Apple on PC, run this on that, etc. Yet, just like Libre Office vs. Microsoft Office, the conversions aren't always 'clean.'

In this case, it's not just a push of a button and everything is sunshine and rainbows. We know the formatting is different in the new iteration of vBulletin and we saw what Kestryll went through just to make the template more 'acceptable' to most. Malicious code or not, it can certainly act that way.

30 years ago, I was working with a store which changed it's whole computer system to one a neighboring, but non-competing business used. Even with help from the one business, it was a nightmare for the employees, with a lot of down time. Worse. Half their sales involved mail/phone orders. Let's just say I'm glad I wasn't around when they also adopted online ordering. 😏

[DB>]

All the evidence is that the "data" is all still there (and should be when the gateway issue is solved), BUT it's trapped behind what I'd describe as a misconfigured web interface or perhaps malicious code buried within the site, or maybe even a DDoS attack....

From my recollection, Kes is dealing with aging family, and as the "designated caregiver" in my family, I will tell you it's NOT easy, in fact it can really take you out, and often the caregiver needs a caregiver.... I won't judge if that is the case - family before business, and I'll defend that to anyone who says otherwise!!!! And guess what, caregivers think they are strong and don't need help.... voice of experience. So if Kes is walking in those shoes, he can use a LOT of thoughts and prayers.

I've seen this sort of thing before (and on FAR better funded and staffed sites with names most people recognize). When you're trying to fix broken code, it becomes too easy to not see the forest for the trees, and it's easy to entirely miss a critical line or two of code that is wrecking EVERYTHING.

I had the project lead of a major eCom site ring my phone when 3 critical bugs that had been repeatedly reported during testing pre-deployment went "release" and knocked out the most used browser entirely, along with other mission critical functionality. I was begged to help if I could. in less than 15 minutes of my directing someone I could hear frantically clicking away on their keyboard, the bugs were squashed...

I have NO DOUBT that that the right set of eyes would spot the CG problems quickly - I have a pretty good idea myself, and I am about 25 years out of date on the "nuts and bolts"! My son could probably sort it out pretty fast as well.

[TheGood]

^^^ You mean like the ENTIRE MESSAGING SYSTEM, which crashes every time you try and access the INBOX/SENT mail links? How is this not a massive problem for the server when people are trying to communicate for firearm transactions via PM's? Why has it not been addressed yet??

[Warbonnet]

This is a very naive take.

1.) you don’t provide instructions for your members on how to cancel. You’re not even a contributor, why don’t you sign up? If you saw the question, people did not know how to cancel. The instructions are posted on here by me too but was not accessible. You aren’t able to cancel on this site. It’s hidden, hmm I wonder why? Whats your excuse for this?

2.) its takes 10 minutes to install a compatible database software.

3.) you can upgrade and have kept itrader, IF you paid professionals to do their job. It’s like I gave you the task of upgrading the site and everyone is twiddling their thumbs wondering why it doesn’t work reliably.

4.) if you don’t want to welcome Calguns members back, if the site improves, then that speaks volumes about your loyalty to a website/man and not a purpose. 2A in CA should not be gated and not by you of all people, not me either. Both sites can thrive, maybe you don’t know that is possible. It can! Just like arfcom, snipershide, gunbroker, glocktalk, reddit, facebook, etc all still keep chugging along.

you’ve been patient for the past 3 years. Kudos to you. The purpose of what Kes and myself do is to provide a platform for the 2A community. If anything I hope he enjoys retirement and time with his Boss. It takes a lot of time and effort to keep the site operational.

Personally, I added a cancel button out of professionalism, which you so elegantly ignored. I’d love to know how many are still paying who no longer want to, that you’re now actively preventing them from canceling.

Please stop comparing yourself to Kes. Your site is rife with liberal gun owners who disparage Kes and Calguns in general as being "racist", "misogynist", and worse, and YOU allow that discussion on YOUR site, while continuing here to talk out of both sides of your mouth, hoping to get members here impatient over the server issues to go to your forum for YOUR financial benefit.


Okay fine, it isn't personal, it's business. But DON'T compare what your site is to Kes and Calguns please. All this gaslighting by you is nauseating.